David,
Yes, the baseline for inquiry/research for (Toribio and Isabel) birth dates
is 1520 to 1530, and we need to recognize that, this was the very start of
the colonization of the Nueva Espana (Mexico). So, availability of records
perdon , pero estoy investigando mi arbol genealogico y gran parte de mi familia segun lo que he investigado esta en jalisco y zacatecas pero me atore, si alguien tiene datos que me pudieran ayudar acerca de las siguientes personas se los agradeceria:
Seria bueno que enviaras una genealogia representativa, es decir una seccion de arbol familiar que incluya lugares y fechas de lo que tienes y así será más fácil cooperar contigo. ¿escribes en ingles? sería muy bueno tambien. Saludos.
carlos avila escribió: perdon , pero estoy investigando mi arbol genealogico y gran parte de mi familia segun lo que he investigado esta en jalisco y zacatecas pero me atore, si alguien tiene datos que me pudieran ayudar acerca de las siguientes personas se los agradeceria:
gorgonio avila ruiz, guillermina robles gonzalez , eulogio robles, m. jesus gonzalez, serapio avila, m. merced ruiz, estevan euron, , paula padilla, luz lopez, felipa aguilar, pero lo que mas me interesa y es donde tengo menos datos es de luisa gonzalez nacida en 1905 al parecer hija de hilario gonzalez y refugio elizondo, se que hay algo que mi Padre no quizo decir u ocultar en esta rama por lo tal quiero seguir investigando y formar mi arbol de la mejor forma para que mis descendientes lo aprecien.
p.d. han de disculpar por tanto texto, pero me gusta investigar.
GRACIAS POR SU ATENCION.
---------------------------------
Llama gratis a cualquier PC del mundo.
Con una excelente calidad de sonido.
Yahoo! Messenger
La genalogia representativa de Carlos Avila se encuentra en http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/16048.
Gracias por ofrecer tu ayuda Leticia.
Carlos, como te comenta Leticia, en la investigacion genealogica los nombres sin fechas ni lugares no son muy untiles. Ya que para investigar toca saber en que acervos buscar y eso va a depender de donde cree uno que vivieron sus ancestros. Ademas va a depender de las fechas ya que el registro civil en Mexico comienza solamente a fines del siglo XIX y antes de eso toca usar registros parroquiales, acervos notariales, etc.
Te sugiero que comiences con busquedas en las bases de datos de los Mormones en http://www.familysearch.org
Buscando rapidamente encontre un registro que podria ser relevante... toca recordar que los registros no siempre estan de acuerdo, i.e. un nombre como Gorgonio puede aparecer como Geronimo.
GUILLERMA ROBLES
Marriages:
Spouse: GERONIMO DE AVILA
Marriage: 09 AUG 1862
El Sagrario Or Santo Domingo, Zacatecas, Zacatecas, Mexico
Parece que esa familia de los Avila Ruiz moraba en Trancoso y Panuco, Zacatecas en los 1830s ya que alli nacieron varios hijos de la pareja de Serapio Avila y Maria Mercedes Ruiz:
1. FELIPE AVILA RUIZ - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 07 MAY 1854 Trancoso, Zacatecas, Mexico
2. MARIA JOSEFA TIMOTEA AVILA RUIZ - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 24 JAN 1836
3. MARIA JOSEFA TIMOTEA AVILA RUIZ - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 06 FEB 1836 San Juan Bautista, Panuco, Zacatecas, Mexico
4. MA. JOSEFA AVILA RUIZ - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 09 FEB 1840 San Juan Bautista, Panuco, Zacatecas, Mexico
5. MARIA DEL REFUGIO AVILA RUIS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 25 MAR 1856 San Juan Bautista, Panuco, Zacatecas, Mexico
Carlos:
La pagina de la Iglesia de los Santos de los Ultimos Dias (familysearch.org) no contiene arboles genealogicos completos. Es basicamente una serie de indices de extracciones de libros parroquiales y de hojas de sacramentos que se les otorgan a los ancestros de miembros de la iglesia.
La investigacion genealogica es 90% recopilacion de datos tal como matrimonios y bautismos para poco a poco ir creando su propio arbol genalogico. Luego el otro 10% es encontrar otra persona que comparta un linaje en comun y sea tan amable de compartir sus investigaciones. Pero el 10% que es encontrar arboles ya investigados y organizados no es posible sin el primer 90%.
Te sugiero que uses el vinculo del sito Nuestros Ranchos con la etiqueta de "Rollos" o "Films" en ingles. Busca el municipio cuyos registros quieras revisar y haz click en el boton que diga IGI o VRI en un rollo con fechas apropiadas. Estos son los indices mas importantes para Mexico. Te dara todos los nombres que aparecen en ese rollo. Luego puedes delimitar tu busqueda (haciendo click en "REFINE SEARCH" en la parte superior derecha de la pagina) por apellido o segun el nombre del padre o de la madre y asi ir buscando hermanos de tus ancestros o variaciones en los nombres.
Interesting quote from the movie "The man who wasn't there", by the Coen brothers, with Billy Bob Thorton:
I found myself, more and more,
going over to the Abundas's.
It was a routine we fell into
Does anyone know who Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza is? She would of been born around 1530 in Mexico City. Her father was said to be Diego Hurtado de Mendoza, a Spanish Conquistador, and the grandchild of
Daniel,
Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza is in my family tree. She was born Circa 1930 and
married Toribio Hernandez de Arellano about 1588 in Lagos de Moreno,
Jalisco.
Partial issue from this mariage were:
Daughter: - Maria Hurtado de Mendoza, born Circa 1567, and married to
Rodrigo Olivares about 1588 in Lagos de Moreno.
Grand-daughter: Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza, born about 1590, and married to
Gonzalo Ramirez de Arellano about 1607 in Jalostotitlan, Jalisco.
As to her ascendency, some of the information in my files "suggests" that
she was the daughter of Diego Hurtado de Mendoza but, because of my present
focus on other ancestral lines in my tree, I have not yet had the
time/opportunity to access and read her birth documents to "confirm" this.
I would also be very interested in any additional facts that other members
may contribute.
Saludos,
Efrain Conrique
San Diego, California
> [Original Message]
> From: mormonboy74
> To:
> Date: 6/3/2007 11:23:59 AM
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza
>
>
> Does anyone know who Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza is? She would of been born
around 1530 in Mexico City. Her father was said to be Diego Hurtado de
Mendoza, a Spanish Conquistador, and the grandchild of
> Rodrigo Hurtado de Mendoza, the Marquis of Cenete. Other sources said
this is inaccurate and there is no evidence for this. I think many of us on
Ranchos descend from Isabel de Mendoza through the Ruiz de Esparza and
Lopez de Elisalde lines. Is there any Mexico City Records or anything
during that period that could prove this? and find out who she exactly is?
Any assistance is helpful. Thanks. -Daniel Mendez del Camino
Hello Efrain, Thanks for your help, I was wondering since I have extra time
where would or where do you think her records would be also that of Toribio Hernandez? Mexico City, or Aguascalientes? since its ca. 1530 it should me Mexico City or in that region.
Daniel Alejandro Mendez del Camino
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Somos Primos June 2007 Table of Contents + URL lq3
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 19:30:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: MIMILOZANO@aol.com
To: MIMILOZANO@aol.com
Does anyone know this surname, as far as I have seen its not very commen in Aguascalientes but there are A LOT in Jalisco and Michoacan Area. I have never heard the surname de Ordorica before until know. I think My Ordorica line migrated to Aguas in the mid 1740's. Here is my Ordorica line.
Daniel,
Orodrica is common in Nochistlan Zac. My Saldivars are inter-connected to Ordorica's but as far as I can tell, I don't have a direct connection.
Alicia, San Jose, Calif
----- Original Message ----
From: mormonboy74
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:18:26 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ordorica Surname
Does anyone know this surname, as far as I have seen its not very commen in Aguascalientes but there are A LOT in Jalisco and Michoacan Area. I have never heard the surname de Ordorica before until know. I think My Ordorica line migrated to Aguas in the mid 1740's. Here is my Ordorica line.
Maria Rita de Ordorica born ca. 1775 in Ciudad Aguascalientes, Ags., Mexico and married Hipolito de Soto around 1795 and had Mateo de Soto y de Ordorica who is my 4th great grandfather. Any help is appreciated. Thanks for all your help in the past.
Daniel you will have to go further back with your dates--Jose Mateo de Soto Ordorica was Christened-10/9/1787-Nuestra Senora de Los Dolores, Teocaltiche,Jalisco, Mexico----he also had a sister-Maria Margarita Soto Ordorica--6/28/1789---same church as above. Their parents were- Polito ( Hipolito) de Soto and Maria Rita Gertrudis Ordorica.
I'll keep checking, I think I found you a back door. Hope this helps.
Paula
----- Original Message -----
From: Alicia Carrillo
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 1:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ordorica Surname
Daniel,
Orodrica is common in Nochistlan Zac. My Saldivars are inter-connected to Ordorica's but as far as I can tell, I don't have a direct connection.
Alicia, San Jose, Calif
----- Original Message ----
From: mormonboy74 >
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:18:26 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ordorica Surname
Does anyone know this surname, as far as I have seen its not very commen in Aguascalientes but there are A LOT in Jalisco and Michoacan Area. I have never heard the surname de Ordorica before until know. I think My Ordorica line migrated to Aguas in the mid 1740's. Here is my Ordorica line.
Maria Rita de Ordorica born ca. 1775 in Ciudad Aguascalientes, Ags., Mexico and married Hipolito de Soto around 1795 and had Mateo de Soto y de Ordorica who is my 4th great grandfather. Any help is appreciated. Thanks for all your help in the past.
This looks good! I already knew my Soto and Ordorica line immigrated to
Calvillo from somewhere in Jalisco, but didnt know until now. Now only if
had a marriage record from Hipolito Soto and Rita Ordorica. Here! I also
found several other children! I know for sure these are the right people
because several of there children were born in Calvillo, Aguascalientes. But
will order the films just to make sure. Thanks a lot you really took down a
brick wall! It get difficult in research when people keep moving!
Maria Francisca Castola /de Soto y de Ordorica/ Christened 6 Apr 1782 in
Teocaltiche, Jal.
Maria Francisca /de Soto Ordorica/ Christened 20 Sep 1801 in Calvillo, Ags.
Maria Paulina de San Juan /de Soto y de Ordorica/ Christened 25 Jun 1797 in
Calvillo, Ags.
Jose Estevan /de Soto Odorica/ Christened 18 Oct 1808 in Calvillo, Ags.
-Daniel Alejandro Mendez del Camino
_________________________________________________________________
PC Magazines 2007 editors choice for best Web mailaward-winning Windows
Live Hotmail.
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I found the Marriage Record this is getting to be good!
Jose Ypolito de Soto
Rita Gertrudis de Odorica
22 Apr 1781
Teocaltiche, Jalisco, Mexico
Hello Daniel! Have you search in Vital Record Index?
Is one of the resources for search in the familysearch site, on the left side of the panel. Just write Ordorica and select Mexico for region. Just surname and region.
I recently discovered that I can use that option. Well, I am slow. Good luck!
Daniel Mendez escribió:
This looks good! I already knew my Soto and Ordorica line immigrated to
Calvillo from somewhere in Jalisco, but didnt know until now. Now only if
had a marriage record from Hipolito Soto and Rita Ordorica. Here! I also
found several other children! I know for sure these are the right people
because several of there children were born in Calvillo, Aguascalientes. But
will order the films just to make sure. Thanks a lot you really took down a
brick wall! It get difficult in research when people keep moving!
Maria Francisca Castola /de Soto y de Ordorica/ Christened 6 Apr 1782 in
Teocaltiche, Jal.
Maria Francisca /de Soto Ordorica/ Christened 20 Sep 1801 in Calvillo, Ags.
Maria Paulina de San Juan /de Soto y de Ordorica/ Christened 25 Jun 1797 in
Calvillo, Ags.
Jose Estevan /de Soto Odorica/ Christened 18 Oct 1808 in Calvillo, Ags.
-Daniel Alejandro Mendez del Camino
_________________________________________________________________
PC Magazines 2007 editors choice for best Web mailaward-winning Windows
Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_mig…
have a listen to new audio on the Texas Connection to the American
Revolution by Jack Cowan:
http://nuestrafamiliaunida.com/podcast/revolution.html
joseph
====================
Joseph Puentes
Is anyone doing Saucedo research in Malpaso? If so please contact me:
makas@nc.rr.com
thanks,
joseph
====================
Joseph Puentes
http://H2Opodcast.com (Environment Podcast)
http://H2Opodcast.blogspot.com/ (Blog for above)
Hi,
I am looking for a Saucedo, but I don't know where she was from.
Rafael Cepeda & Rosa Saucedo were the parents of Ma. Encarnación Cepeda.
Domingo Navarro & María Encarnación Cepeda were the parents of Victoriano Navarro, who was born in Ocotlán, Jalisco and moved to Coahuila in the 1830's.
Right now I'm checking out LDS microfilms looking for the Coahuila branch of the Navarro family, and eventually I'll move back to Jalisco and Rosa Saucedo.
I'll let you know if I find anything about her family,
Regards,
VN
Does anyone have info on the patriarch of the Ruiz de Esparza line in Jalisco, IGI starts showing them in Jalisco about the mid 1670's in Jalisco. I found my Simon Ruiz de Esparza it appears as he came from Teocaltiche, Jalisco to Calvillo, Aguas. and found there marriage now. I have seen different records for Juana Maria and her last names appear different several times when the records were written? I wonder Why? Would anyone know the answer to this?
Does anybody have a copy of this book or know where I can obtain one?
José León Robles de la Torre
Filigranas, Fundaciones y Genealogias, Tepetongo, Zacatecas
(Torreón, Coahuila: Editorial del Norte Mexicano, 1999).
Thank you to those members who responded to me and clarified some points for me. The book that I am looking for is not on Tepetongo, but rather another book by the same author with a similar name but on Jerez and Monte Escobedo. I have been told that this book was just recently published.
José León Robles de la Torre
Filigranas Fundaciones y Genealogia Jerez, Susticacan y Monte Escovedo
I just got this book in the mail today, having purchased it through George Farias' Borderlands Books:
José León Robles de la Torre
Filigranas Fundaciones y Genealogia Jerez, Susticacan y Monte Escovedo
I had attempted to purchase it through the author directly but he wanted the money wired to him via Western Union and $36 in shipping charges so it came out to more than $100, which is what George charges for it.
Anyhow, it is very poorly laid out, the genealogical tables are hand-drawn and nearly incomprehensible. Furthermore, it is very poorly documented, not showing sources for much of the information and much of the genealogical information contained therein is simply wrong, as Leticia Salazar has pointed out about the author's previous publication on Tepetongo.
Just my two cents because I would not like for others to spend their hard-earned money on something that may not be worthwhile.
Thank you Arturo for the information.. much appreciated
Linda in Everett
arturoramos wrote:
I just got this book in the mail today, having purchased it through George Farias' Borderlands Books:
José León Robles de la Torre
Filigranas Fundaciones y Genealogia Jerez, Susticacan y Monte Escovedo
I had attempted to purchase it through the author directly but he wanted the money wired to him via Western Union and $36 in shipping charges so it came out to more than $100, which is what George charges for it.
Anyhow, it is very poorly laid out, the genealogical tables are hand-drawn and nearly incomprehensible. Furthermore, it is very poorly documented, not showing sources for much of the information and much of the genealogical information contained therein is simply wrong, as Leticia Salazar has pointed out about the author's previous publication on Tepetongo.
Just my two cents because I would not like for others to spend their hard-earned money on something that may not be worthwhile.
I have done church marriage records from Jerez and am now working on civil marriage records. I'm finding some that are years apart and others that are days apart, usually the civil marriage first.. Which date would you put for the wedding date? It appears there was a lot more fuss over the church marriage. I'm entering both into the files but wondered which should appear on the marriage date box. I know my grandparents from there only celebrated the church marriage date.
I use PAF program, and it allows for different marriage events. But one event would still need to be the main marriage date. So for myself, I have been placing the Church marriage in the main marriage event and then I add the Civil Marriage as a separate marriage event. So at the high level view, it only shows the Church marriage but when I select the detail view, then it shows both dates and each date stores its own event location and event source.
Hope this helps,
Angie Godina
I think that the Church Marriage would be best because its the persons
belief in religious rites, just like us Mormons sometimes we get married in
Civil Law first, but its not recognized by the church to be Spouses yet
until you are married in the Temple, then its when we celebrated.
>From: longsjourney
>Reply-To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Church and civil marriage records
>Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 01:04:38 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>
>I have done church marriage records from Jerez and am now working on civil
>marriage records. I'm finding some that are years apart and others that
>are days apart, usually the civil marriage first.. Which date would you put
>for the wedding date? It appears there was a lot more fuss over the church
>marriage. I'm entering both into the files but wondered which should appear
>on the marriage date box. I know my grandparents from there only celebrated
>the church marriage date.
>
>Linda in Everett
Civil marriage coul be added as a note as it is part of history events in a person´s life or viceversa. I think civil marriage is more likely to be useful in the case of civil requirements. For those relatives who are going to appreciate your work in genealogy matter it would be the best to have both dates.
Daniel Mendez escribió: I think that the Church Marriage would be best because its the persons
belief in religious rites, just like us Mormons sometimes we get married in
Civil Law first, but its not recognized by the church to be Spouses yet
until you are married in the Temple, then its when we celebrated.
>From: longsjourney
>Reply-To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Church and civil marriage records
>Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 01:04:38 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>
>I have done church marriage records from Jerez and am now working on civil
>marriage records. I'm finding some that are years apart and others that
>are days apart, usually the civil marriage first.. Which date would you put
>for the wedding date? It appears there was a lot more fuss over the church
>marriage. I'm entering both into the files but wondered which should appear
>on the marriage date box. I know my grandparents from there only celebrated
>the church marriage date.
>
>Linda in Everett
In the USA if you have a Church Marriage it is legally recognized by the State, but here in Mexico people have to get married twice since the State does not recognize Church Marriages and if you have a Civil Marrage as far as the Church is concerned you are not really married (although now you can not get married by the Church unless you previously got a Civil Marriage).
So, many couples get a Civil Marriage a few weeks or days before the Church Marriage (or even the same day, just before or after the Church ceremony), but the big wedding family party usually happens the same day as the Church wedding.
All this Church-State separation can be traced back to President Juarez's Reformation Laws.
VN
Simon Ruiz de Esparza (b. ca. 1785) (Espanol) in Ciudad Aguascalientes or Calvillo, Ags.
Andres Ruiz de Esparza (b. ca. 1800) (Espanol) in Calvillo, Ags.
Does anyone know how to contact a cronista for any given municpal?
I would like to contact the cronista from Rio Grande, COahuila also known as Guerrero.
--
Esther A. Herold
-------------- Original message from arturoramos : --------------
Esther, there is an association of city historians for the state of Coahuila: Asociacion Estatal de Cronistas e Historiadores del Estado de Coahuila, A. C. I couldn't find an address or phone number online for the cronista in Guerrero, but as of 2005 the person is listed as Enrique Cervera Rodriguez. Maybe you can contact the city of Guerrero at buzon@coahuila.gob.mx, or you can contact the Asociacion at cronistascoahuila@yahoo.com.mx and hopefully someone can tell you how to contact Mr. Cervera.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA ---
Hello All,
I have been asked, to plan and do a online Hispanic Family History Conference. I was wondering if anyone in the group, could give me any ideas of what subjects to present, who to ask to be presenters, and how to promote the conference, so that it can worthwhile for the attendees and for the presenters.
Jonathan:
That sounds like a great idea. Who is organizing the conference and how will it be held?
Some interesting topics would be:
- Spanish language paleography
- Use of marriage dispensation records
- Surname systems in early colonial Mexico
- Border crossing records
Jonathan
What a great opportunity for many in this group who have so much knowledge and experience in researching their ancestral heritage.
Maybe you can put together a list of questions or topics and solicit people's input. There may be those who have greater understanding of certain areas of research, who can provide their areas of expertise. Will it be conducted in Spanish/English or both?
Will it be a question and answer or presentation only. What's the duration? hours, a day or several days?
Would it be on a volunteer basis or can we as a group nominate people who we think have something valuable to offer? Will it be region specific as in Mexico only or will you take hispanic as in Latin America? Spain, Portugal, Italy to include the early European explorers who ventured into the America's. Would it include DNA studies?
I know, too many questions but I guess it's part of what you must decipher before you put together a conference and by answering some of these questions you begin to form a vision of what you want or have time to present.
Alicia,
San Jose, Calif
----- Original Message ----
From: mexicanfhr
To: announce@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 6:49:52 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Online Hispanic Family History Conference
Hello All,
I have been asked, to plan and do a online Hispanic Family History Conference. I was wondering if anyone in the group, could give me any ideas of what subjects to present, who to ask to be presenters, and how to promote the conference, so that it can worthwhile for the attendees and for the presenters.
Thanks,
Jonathan
joanthan@mexicanfhr.com
The conference will be put on by "Family History Live Online" (FHLO), they offer online Family History classes, support sessions, and monthly fairs. So it will be presented online using their software known as the "ReGL Viewer". There is no charge for the viewer and at the moment, they are not charging for the classes, support sessions, and fairs at the moment.
As, I stated in my initial message, I have been asked to plan the conference. So pretty much what will be taught is at my discrection. I would like to see classes taught in both English and Spanish. At the moment the presenters will be on a volunteer basis, since at moment FHLO has no budget. And as for the geographic emphasis, that will depend on the interest shown in the conference and the specaility of the presenters. Right now FHLO as members from Mexico, Puerto Rico, Venezuela, Peru, Argentina and the US.
So, I am looking for any help or suggestions, that the ranchos community can provide. Because my goal, is to help anyone, where ever they may be, with their research.
thanks,
Jonathan
for those who would like to see how the conference would be presented. FHLO is doing a Family History Consultant training fair, this coming Saturday, from 8:00 am to 4:00 pm (MDT). You can log on for a little bit and see how the presentation is.
Jonathan
Hello,
I want to re-introduce myself to the group. If anyone
can help, please let me know...I'm stuck right now.
Here's what I recently discovered. My great
grandfather, Nicanor Pineda, married twice in
Chris:
I am glad that you have decided to come back to the group.
Have you thought about doing DNA testing? I had my cousin, whose direct paternal line is Pinedo do a Y-DNA test last year and I would be interested to see if you two are a match since my maternal grandfather is a Pinedo from a Tlaltenango branch of Pinedos.
Hey Arturo,
Thanks for the email. I have thought about DNA testing, but it'll have to wait until I'm done with law school. And I'd like to see how far I can get before I do it. Anyway, I did want to ask if there's anything interesting you found out about your Pinedo line thru the Y-DNA test...
I also had another question for you. In all Tlaltenango documents that I've been going thru, I haven't come across any Cardozas. Have you in Tlaltenango or any surrounding areas? I think this might provide a clue about where the Pedro Pinedo in my family lived, or at least married (his second wife was a Cardoza). Take care,
Chris Pineda
Chris:
All of the close matches to my cousin's Pinedo Y-DNA are Irish or English so it is likely a Celtic lineage from northern Spain... Galicia (note the resemblence to the word Gaelic) and Cantabria were heavily Celtic.
As far as Cardozas in Zacatecas, they seem to be concentrated in Panuco, Rio Grande and Pinos.
Arturo,
Thanks for getting back to me. I had a follow up question regarding the Y-DNA research. I look at Gary Felix' page from time to time and I noticed what I think is your sample, and its Semitic heritage. Have you done any research on Sephardic Jews in Mexico?
Beginning as part of an undergrad thesis several years ago, I learned about the Carvajal family, a family that all Mexican-Americans who've researched their northern Mexican roots has surely come across. Anyway, since that time, I've spent a lot of time finding their descendants, backed up by documentation. I think I've gotten pretty far and I'm now at a point where I'd like to see if others recognize any descendants, in the hope of finding connections from the Carvajals to the present.
Let me know if you have any suggestions for what I should do with the family tree. Take care,
Chris Pineda
Chris:
The Carvajales are certainly a well known family in Mexico among genealogists. Because the records of the inquisition are so clear in their condemnation of them as Jews and their pivotal role in the foundation of Monterrey and several other northern Mexican cities.
I imagine that there are plenty of descendants of Carvajales that have traced their lineage back. If your research is well documented, I would suggest sharing it with the general public through Mimo Lozano's Somos Primos publication.
I have done some reading on the Sephardim of Mexico. My strict paternal lineage is somewhat problematic because I get back to about 1770 and I have an ancestor who was "expuesto" and adopted and therefore I am unable to go back any further. It is certainly a great enigma that I would like to resolve... where Joseph Ramon Aranzazu came from and who his parents were. Some in the group have told me that it is possible his adoptive father was in fact his illegitimate father. There are Aranzazus around Tlaltenango today who are probably descendants of the adoptive father Bartholome Aranzazu and a Y-DNA test of one of them would prove or disprove that theory.
The cronista of Totatiche seems to think that the early Spanish families around the region were Sephardim and because the region was a frontier where the indigenous people had been given autonomy it was a good refuge. It certainly attracted many escaped slaves. That is pretty well documented in early litigation between the "naturales" and some of the espanoles who were trying to claim their land under the pretense that they were not in fact "naturales" of the region but rather slaves that had escaped their masters and indigenous people who had escaped their encomiendas. Early records in Tlaltenango, Colotlan and Totatiche certainly show many negros and mulattos, many of them free and mostly marrying into the local indigenous population.
Can anyone help me locate where this town is at in the state of Jalisco? what is the major town nearby?
Yolanda:
Look in the Links section in Nuestros Ranchos and under Geographical Information there is a link for Jalisco municipalities. San Gabriel is south of Lake Chapala just north of the Colima border.
If you look at the Digital Map collections also under the Links - Geographical information, you will see that there is a link to the Secretaria de Comunicaciones y Transporte's Atlas Digital de Mexico. You can dowload a high resolution PDF map of Jalisco where you can find what towns are around San Gabriel... it looks like: Zapotitlan, Tomilan, Tapalpa and Zapotlan el Grande... The closest large city will likely be Colima.
San Gabriel (formerly Cd. Venustinano Carranza) is a Municipio (a State subdivision, like a County), and Municipios are usually named after the main city within.
"Limita al norte con los municipios de Tapalpa y Sayula, en su parte sur con Tolimán y Zapotitlán de Vadillo, al oriente con Zapotlán el Grande, antes Ciudad Guzmán, y Gómez Farías, y al oeste con Tonaya y Tuxcacuesco."
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Gabriel_(Jalisco)
VN
The response to my inquiry on Defunciones has been very helpful and enlightening - y'all are awesome to enter the discussion and share your knowledge. I plan to take all of your comments and compile a list (cheat sheet) to go with my notations/extractions. This has been a terrific learning experience. Thanks again to all of you.
Around 2,000 genealogists who are reported to have attended this year's National Genealogical Society (NGS) Conference --- held last week in Richmond, Virginia --- were offered a preview of the forthcoming revamped search interface for the FamilySearch site.
This Sounds good I will always find new records online but then then need to
order the film to find the parents, etc. This will be fun. Cant wait!
>From: conrique
>Reply-To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Revamped search interface for
>FamilySearchcoming soon !
>Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 18:23:42 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>Around 2,000 genealogists who are reported to have attended this year's
>National Genealogical Society (NGS) Conference --- held last week in
>Richmond, Virginia --- were offered a preview of the forthcoming revamped
>search interface for the FamilySearch site.
>
>Family History Library representatives at their booth now project the
>revamped site launch to be THIS FALL.
>The new system integrates information from the presently disparate
>databases (IGI, Pedigree Resource and Ancestral Files, etc.) and will
>feature linking to digitizes records.
>
>And, even though only a small portion of the Library's vast holdings will
>be available when the site relaunches, content will expand rapidly and
>record IMAGES will become available online soon.
>
>Efrain Conrique
>San Diego, California
Daniel from what I was told at our local history center we will be able to pull up the actual record just like we can the census records for the U.S. on Ancestry.com. No more ordering and waiting for films unless you want to, I was told the films would still be available.
From experience I've found some older records extremely hard to read and would think ordering the original film so we can enlarge it might be of a great help with some records. We will have the best of both worlds and I also look forward to it. It's a blessing for people who don't have a history center within a reasonable driving range also. People getting into genealogy in abt 10 years will have a wondeful resource we didn't have, I'm very pleased to see this happening and what a wonderful gift from the LDS for us all.
Linda in Everett
Daniel Mendez wrote:
This Sounds good I will always find new records online but then then need to
order the film to find the parents, etc. This will be fun. Cant wait!
>From: conrique
>Reply-To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Revamped search interface for
>FamilySearchcoming soon !
>Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 18:23:42 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>Around 2,000 genealogists who are reported to have attended this year's
>National Genealogical Society (NGS) Conference --- held last week in
>Richmond, Virginia --- were offered a preview of the forthcoming revamped
>search interface for the FamilySearch site.
>
>Family History Library representatives at their booth now project the
>revamped site launch to be THIS FALL.
>The new system integrates information from the presently disparate
>databases (IGI, Pedigree Resource and Ancestral Files, etc.) and will
>feature linking to digitizes records.
>
>And, even though only a small portion of the Library's vast holdings will
>be available when the site relaunches, content will expand rapidly and
>record IMAGES will become available online soon.
>
>Efrain Conrique
>San Diego, California
I also use another translation site. It is Freetranslation.com I have found it easy to use. Like Babelfish it has its limitations. If you want a good translation, it is better to keep your sentences simple. It seems to confuse more intricate sentences. Here is an example of translation:
thank-you for your assistance in providing information on diagnosis
translations. "Hydropesia," then could have been internal bleeding, or
hydrophilia, which is absorbing water. It is a challenge when letters are
interchanged, s for f, etc. and c for s as far as the other term I found
"fistula antigua" though I think you are right about it being a malignant
festering pustule. What a way to go!
Corrine
I was not going to comment on this again but "hydropesia" is a good example of what I previously stated and perhaps did not emphasize. I want to underline that many of the stated causes of death are symptoms, not diagnoses. The observer, i.e. priest/cura or whoever, stated the cause of death according to what they saw or what was known at the time. For example, hydropesia in English is "dropsy." Dropsy is a very old term that referred to excessive water accumulation (edema, anasarca, etc.). Clearly dropsy can then refer to any condition where there is excessive salt and water accumulation. The three most common conditions of massive edema (dropsy in the old days) are: heart failure, liver faiilure and kidney failure. Obviously any number of medical conditions, e.g. multiple heart attacks, alcohol, diabetes, hepatitis, etc., can cause any of these types of major organ failures.
So, you see how it might be difficult to tell what exactly happened based on the descriptions, i.e. symptoms. Having said that, there are times when the diagnoses are clearly state: "viruela," small pox.
Ed
Thank you Ed, I also noticed in the records I'm working on that hydropesia was usually on the death records of older persons. I also wondered how people who died at home without medical care could have anything other than a guess as to why they died unless its obvious like a scorpion sting or small pox. I was also surprised how many died of syphilis in Mexico in the early days, I guess it was a death sentence in the early years.
thanks again, Linda in Everett
Edward Serros wrote:
I was not going to comment on this again but "hydropesia" is a good example of what I previously stated and perhaps did not emphasize. I want to underline that many of the stated causes of death are symptoms, not diagnoses. The observer, i.e. priest/cura or whoever, stated the cause of death according to what they saw or what was known at the time. For example, hydropesia in English is "dropsy." Dropsy is a very old term that referred to excessive water accumulation (edema, anasarca, etc.). Clearly dropsy can then refer to any condition where there is excessive salt and water accumulation. The three most common conditions of massive edema (dropsy in the old days) are: heart failure, liver faiilure and kidney failure. Obviously any number of medical conditions, e.g. multiple heart attacks, alcohol, diabetes, hepatitis, etc., can cause any of these types of major organ failures.
So, you see how it might be difficult to tell what exactly happened based on the descriptions, i.e. symptoms. Having said that, there are times when the diagnoses are clearly state: "viruela," small pox.
Ed
In reading my book about colonial Spain, the early days of Mexico, I came
upon something that explains why we Mexicans like to have all our family not
just living near us, but in our homes, as well. We see families shopping
Beginning now through June 6th (D-Day),
Ancestry.com will make its entire U.S. Military Collection free to the public. For more information on Ancestry.com's U.S. Military Collection, visit www.ancestry.com/military.
For years Rich and I have been trying to read the cause of death on my grandmother's death certificate. She died at O'Conner Hospital in San Jose, CA in 1924. We contacted O'Conner Hospital, but they were unable to read the handwriting and their records were stored in the basement and of course they were not able to obtain them. I then took the certificate to our own doctor and asked him if he could determine my grandmother's cause of death. It also stumped him because of the handwriting. That is when it hit me, who can read a doctor's handwriting, but a pharmacist? I took it to our local Pharmacy and the pharmacist was able to translate it to be an inflamation of the stomach lining which was more than likely brought on by the 1918 flu epidemic. She came to California with my father and his brother because her infant daughter, husband and father all died in the 1918 flu epidemic. All this time we assumed she died of diabetes since we have diabetes in our family. This same
I have been reading my book, Land and Society in Colonial Mexico, by
Francois Chevaliar, about the origins of the great haciendas in Mexico. I
found another passage in it I thought I would share, because it is the
Has anyone else seen these maps that date from the 1500s? I did a search on the website of the Leventhal Map Collection at the Boston Public Library, and I clicked on the map of Mexico for 1722. You can open them full screen, and move the image around and zoom in. Even with my slow dial-up, they opened up with such detail, and I could print out the enlarged sections exactly as I saw them full screen.
Ed,
My mother and great aunts have shared many factual stories about hardships in these very rural areas. Where my family comes from is Tlachichila Zacatecas in the municipality of Nochistlan. Mom says that when she was a little girl in the ranchos outside of Tlachichila there were no doctors in Tlachichila or Nochistlan, the nearest MD's were in Teocaltiche or Aguascalientes. Mom is 82 so this must have been between 1930 and 1940.
Alicia,
That was so tragic that he died in the end; but what a great story about the empathy people had for each other not only in their own community, but all along the way. I know that some people survived with permanent disabling injuries after accidents. I guess sometimes it was better they died. Otherwise they would really be a burden to their families. There was no prenatal or preventive care, and no recourse for rapes, and other crimes. Some people, like my one great-grandmother were herbalists for their communities who would help by massage therapy and potions, etc. People did what they could. We are so lucky to be living in an age where there are people like Ed to make our lives more comfortable.
I have seen records where several families were wiped out at once due to being attacked by marauding Indians-- "muerto a manos de los hindios barbaros". I had one great-grandfather die after falling off his horse. That would happen a lot. Another great-grandfather was shot to death by robbers. A great uncle had a stroke and lived for years paralyzed; his oldest son was only about 14 and he had to become the man in the family and take over their cantina and restaurant because his siblings were mostly girls and his mother had to tend to the father.
Emilie
----- Original Message -----
From: Alicia Carrillo
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Defunciones translations
Ed,
My mother and great aunts have shared many factual stories about hardships in these very rural areas. Where my family comes from is Tlachichila Zacatecas in the municipality of Nochistlan. Mom says that when she was a little girl in the ranchos outside of Tlachichila there were no doctors in Tlachichila or Nochistlan, the nearest MD's were in Teocaltiche or Aguascalientes. Mom is 82 so this must have been between 1930 and 1940.
Mom had a brother who died as a result of an accident, a stone wall fell on him and crushed him in the chest. There were no vehicles and no paved roads. Mom said that the men of the town constructed a cot and between several men they carried him to Aguascalientes on foot. It took them over a week to carry the cot/stretcher on foot. As they traveled the word would spread and they would get more men on the way to help and every night they would spend the night at some good samaritan's home who would feed them all.
Can you imagine the pain her brother endured over several days and can you imagine the dedication of those who carried him day after day. Just like this story I'm sure there are many more similar or even more gruesome.
For the most part, people died due to lack of medical care.
Alicia
----- Original Message ----
From: Edward Serros >
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 9:32:12 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Defunciones translations
I agree with the translations but I am sure that in many of the cases they do not really tell you what the person really died of. I have reviewed death records from the late 1700's and the 1800's in Jalisco and Zacatecas and what strikes me are the epidemics of "fiebre," which can represent any number of infectious diseases---viral or bacterial. I have no idea of what the diagnosis was when they refer to "cerebral" or "dolor" or whatever. Furthermore the funeral record is being recorded by a priest, who has little or no knowledge of medicine.
I think it is safe to say that a large proportion of the population unfortunately died of infectious diseases for which there was no treatment available at that time. Can you imagine no antibiotic therapy for pneumonia, ear infections, throat infections, skin infection, infected wounds, tuberculosis, lepropsy, etc.? Can you imagine no surgical therapy for appendicitis or cholecystitis (gall stone attack) or heart disease? Can you imagine giving birth to a child where there was no treatment for eclampsia (toxemia) of pregnancy or where there were no surgical options for birth of a child who was not going to be delivered in the usual (vaginal) manner. Can you imagine no treatment for high blood pressure or diabetes?
Bottom line: it was a different world. Take the diagnosis of death with a grain of salt, to say the least.
I know that there are other physicians that are part of this group who may wish to comment on the above
Edward Serros, MD
I remember when I was 14 and in Mexico, I became frightfully ill...something
related to my stomach, as I had constant diarrhea and lost an enormous
amount of weight (which suited me just fine).
Anyway, I was in Tepatilan, Jalisco visiting elders from my "adopted"
family...and I came down with a crazy fever (half my body was ice cold and the
other hot), and I had become somewhat delirious. The "elder women" were called
in to help...and I remember that they rubbed all over my body what appeared
to be lard mixed with salt (it was grainy). Then they wrapped me up in
blankets whereupon I slept for more than 24 hours. As I was falling asleep, I
heard their prayers mixed with chanting...and when I awoke...I was completely
cured.
Years later, as I was talking to an MD, he thought this cure
fascinating...he said that Native Americans have been using "fat" to insulate the body for
years, and that it made sense to use "fat" to try to break a fever. Sometimes
old "remedios" did indeed work!
Esperanza
Chicagoland area
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
I have also found "vecino" meaning a person who was a citizen, but who owned
land or property, not just a person who lived there. "Vecino" then can
mean, neighbor, resident, or citizen. I always translate "originario y
vecino," as "native and resident," of such and such place. "Nativo" also is
for "native."
I think to do translations, too, one must take into consideration the time
period and the socio-political setting. In colonial New Spain, the Mexico
of the 1500's and 1600's, a "vecino" was a citizen, a member of a municipal
corporation, or a city.
I, too, have found "ydropesia," as a cause of death and have not been able
to find that in any dictionary. What is that? It must be "hydro-something
or other." Another thing I found for cause of death was "fistula antigua."
I'm thinking the "f" might actually be an "s," so that would be "sistula,"
or a cyst type of thing, with "antigua," perhaps meaning they had it for a
long time.
Isn't this fun?
Corrine
Corrine,
Below are the translations you were looking for:
- Hidropesía = HYDROPAY. According to the Larousse Diccionary, Hidropesía (sometimes spelled with a "y" or Hyropesía) is an abnormal accumulation of watery fluids, such as watery blood. This covers a wide range of medical conditions. The definition in Spanish is "Acumulación anómala de líquidos serosos en el cuerpo".
Could the word that you read as sistula antigua be "pústula" antigua, i.e. an old pustule such as a malignant pustule? See below.
- afección orgánica del corazón = ABNORMAL HEART CONDITION (NOTE: afección = desease or sickness, infección = infection)
- congestión cerebral = CEREBRAL CONGESTION
- eclampsia or eclamsia = ECLAMPSIA (seizures during pregnancy)
- entesites? (probably ENTERITIS = INFLAMATION OR INFECTION OF THE SMALL INTESTINE
- fiebre palúdica = MALARIA
- tosferina = WHOOPING COUGH
- hemoptisis = COUGHING UP BLOOD
- lepra = LEPROSY
- parto = CHILDBIRTH
- pulmonía = PNEUMONIA
- pústula maligna = MALIGNANT PUSTULE
- piquete de alacrán = SCORPION BITE
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Bill Figueroa
avila, euron, gonzalez, robles, elizondo, padilla