Nuestros Ranchos Site

Hola Every One , I am stuck , I am looking for the connection of Jose Clemente Ramirez(baptized 10 dec 1784 San Juan de Los lagos) son of Joaquin Ramirez and Carmela Garcia . Jose Clemente Ramirez married Ermenegilda Ramirez ( daughter of Joseph Eugenio Ramirez (born 05 feb 1755 San Juan de los lagos ) and Rosalia Prudencia Ornelas (born 14 may 1758 San Juan de Los lagos) .

Jose Clemente Ramirez married Ermenegilda Ramirez 08 feb 1809 San Juan de Los Lagos (Matrimonios-1797-1823 Image # 265 ) -Parientesco de Tercer Grado.

The only hint I have is Ermenegilda Ramirezs Parents -of whom I have mentioned ,but have also their Parents

Joseph Eugenio Ramirez-born to Jose Ramirez(son of Antonio Ramirez and Josefa Vasquez) and Ramona Justa Limon(parents -Miguel limon and Clara de Ornelas) married 08 april 1742 San Juan de Los lagos -Matrimonios-1722-1770 # Image 222

Miguel Limon son of Diego Limon and Marta de Ornelas.

Rosalia Prudencia Ornelas daughter of Antonio George Ornelas and Manuela Olivares

I hope I didn't confuse any one

thank you for your time

Ronnie

Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum,

This question is really meant for Mary Lou, but if anyone else knows the answer that would be good too. I was recently reading about Maria de la Ruelas on Mary Lou's dropbox:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/yop1j3tqornd0xh/AABnVNtOvuDJtcuW0Gk5vgBHa?dl…

and I had a question about Ysabel Marin, daughter of Maria de las Ruelas and Andres Martin Camacho. I had no clue she was the daughter until I read the dropbox. I had thought maybe she was related to the Marin de penalozas until today. But now Im wondering where did she get the Marin name. I thought maybe it was a mistake for Martin but I have 2 records that write her name as Marin. Do you know where it comes from.

Danny C. Alonso

Research, like life, takes us through unexpected paths in our journey. I had previously stated that I believed the following erroneous statement on a previous post:

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/17766?page=1

"I want to address how Tello de Alfonsez Castilla's daughter that I descend from, Maria Tellez de Castilla, who has been called illegitimate by many genealogists because a prominent genealogist once referred to a certain document as proof of her illegitimacy. That document instead should have been given as proof of her legitimacy because it talks about her half sister being illegitimate, that they are half sisters and the way it is written, strongly implies that Maria Tellez de Castiila is legitimate. Maria Tellez de Castilla's Is most likely Juana de Lara's daughter.

I know that many people will dispute this because of the often repeated comment that she died childless, but the document clearly treats Maria de Tellez de Castilla as a legitimate daughter while stressing the illegitimacy of the half sister. If this document is The evidence for determining legitimacy than she must be considered legitimate. "

I continued researching looking for evidence to back up the theory that Maria Tellez de Castilla was the legitimate daughter of Juana Nunez de Lara. I was wrong. But it was a good thing that I went thirough this whole process of trying to prove this erroneous statement. It was in my search for this evidence that I found a record that clearly states that Maria tellez de Castilla is not her daughter. That sounds like bad news after putting in so many hours of work looking to prove the opposite. But at the bottom of the record, in very Small lettering, I found the threads that pointed me in the direction of finding the ancestry of Pedro Ledesma, and to a descent from King Edward III of England.

R.A.Ricci

I have just finished reading a very interesting book, "Genealogical Fictions - Limpieza de Sangre, Religion, and Gender in Colonial Mexico." This is basically a history of the concepts of racial purity in Spain and their evolution into the casta system in colonial Mexico.

There is a little discussion of the status of descendants of the former indigenous nobility, including the descendants of Moctezuma, in Mexico.

This has some implication to proving the ancestry of Petronila de Moctezuma, provided the relevant documents exist and can be found. These could be the information de limpieza de sangre it the probanza de limpieza de sangre.

Chimalpahin, which is mentioned only briefly in Genealogical Fictions, gives some details on the Valderrama de Moctezuma lineage, noting that some of the daughters became nuns, and at least one son became a priest. Perhaps an informacion or probanza exists for one of them. Chimalpahin also refers to five other children whose names are not known.

Petronila is not named in Genealogical Fictions, nor in Chimalpahin's history. Perhaps she is one of the five unnamed children

I've looked at the PARES website, as well as the AGN Mexico City website without success for digitized versions of these kinds of documents.

Does anyone have insight to where these documents of these types could be found?

George Fulton
Pleasanton

I just read an interesting post entitled, "Beware The Sale of Your DNA – Just Because You Can Upload Doesn’t Mean You Should," and thought I would share the link with the group.

https://dna-explained.com/2016/05/25/beware-the-sale-of-your-dna-just-b…

Throughout the last few years I know several of us have been looking for the parents of Pedro Enriquez del Castillo (assumed to be son to Hernando and Maria de Cuellar)... and I too believed that but the following dispensa I found just yesterday says that Francisco Enriquez's mother is a "Petronila Gonzalez", sister to Christobal Gonzalez (who I have on my tree and have proven exists)... who is Petronila and why does it not say that "Ysabel" is Francisco's mom, Pedro's wife?

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-6D9V-RX?i=542&wc=3J4M-HZ9%…

Davis wrote the following in an earlier post:

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

"Marquez de los Olivos/Hurtado de Mendoza
Submitted by The Genealogist on Tue, 2015-09-01 18:48.
Hello Rick,

You can get a copy of Holcombe’s Letters by following this link:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6invajbk0zzo4jm/Letters%20Edited%20for%20Dist…

The marriage you are referring to is on page 91. I do not have an original copy of the marriage record and only have Holcombe’s notes to go on here:

Holcombe’s letters Page 91:
“In the same volume of marriages from the Sagrario(Cathedral) parish in Mexico City (not microfilmed) … is this matrimony:
Entry No. 140: 2 July 1570. Joseph Márquez, a son of Joseph Márquez and Luisa de Acosta, and María de Lerma, daughter of Diego Hurtado and María de Lerma.. “Testigos fueron el Sr. canónigo García Machuca, sedero y Cristóbal Rodríguez Proaño.” Could be the parents of you know-who [referring to Joseph Marquez de los Olivos (husband of Maria de Ornelas)]. Suggest you see if pasajeros a Indias data for the parents of both is in the digests and look for christenings of the married couple’s children in the Sagrario, to see if they had a son Joseph (he’d be the third in a row). [If] … not in the Sagrario, try the Santa Veracruz parish.”

As he says the record is not microfilmed so presumably one would have to go to Mexico City to thoroughly research this reference. Until then, we will not know if Maria “de Lerma” is really a misreading of Maria “de Luna.”

As for a connection between Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza and the Marquez de los Olivos line. Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza was a grandmother of Maria de Ornelas (wife of Joseph Marquez de los Olivos). This couple had a son Diego Marquez de los Olivos, whose progeny spreads through Lagos de Moreno. It still needs to be determined if Capitan Miguel Marquez de los Olivos, whose progeny spreads through Colotlan, is a son of this couple, or a natural son of the husband, or the son of a different couple all together.

Some food for thought:
It also still needs to be determined if Joseph Marquez de los Olivos (husband of Maria de Ornelas) is the son of Joseph Marquez and Maria de Lerma/“de Luna?”. If he is, and if Diego Hurtado (father of Maria de Lerma/“de Luna?”) is also the same Diego Hurtado (father of Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza, whose paternity I feel still needs to be more solidly determined), than Joseph Marquez de los Olivos and Maria de Ornelas would be cousins once removed. If this is the case, theoretically there could be a dispensa hiding somewhere for their marriage, 28 April 1614, Lagos de Moreno.

There are still many “if’s” to be flushed out here, but I hope this helps.

Regards,

David"

My response:

I took a look at Jaime Holcombes and believe that he has done tremendous work. I have been a student of his wonderful work for decades. However, I do not believe that he is a hundred per cent correct in his findings. I disagree in his assumptions on Toribio Hernandez, and believe that he may be combining two Diego Ochoa when he talks about two marriages.

I will not be traveling to Mexico City so I won't be able to check the Mexico records on Diego Hurtado de Mendoza and Maria Lerma(Luna?)
If someone that lives in Mexico City takes on this task they may find the missing pieces as to to who Isabel Hurtado de Mendozas parents are.

Rick A. Ricci

I dont know how to link to PARES but to find the document, you search FRANCISCO DE COVARRUBIAS under Archivo General de Indias -> CONTRATACION. The document is dated 1563.

The description states "Expediente de información y licencia de pasajero a indias de Francisco de Covarrubias, sedero, natural de Granada, hijo de Gaspar de Covarrubias y Margarita Quijada, con su mujer María Ramírez, natural de Ecija, hija de Martín Bermudo y Catalina de Osuna, a Nueva España"

I don't know spanish and Im having a hard time trying to read the record. I was hoping someone could transcribe or extract information from the record for me. Here's what I'm looking for, if it is in the record:

Approximate age of Francisco
Where he was born and living
Parents names
where they are living
a "gist" of what the record is about
Any other genealogically relevant information

(I know some of the info is in the description above but I would like to verify that's what is written in the record)

Also any info regarding Maria Ramirez or her parents isn't too important to me. Its beacuse descend from Francisco's second wife, Maria Colio, so I prefer any efforts into helping me go to Francisco. FYI this the arrival record for Francisco Covarrubias, future contador of Jalisco who married Diego Garcia de Colio's (first wave of conquistadors) granddaughter Maria.

Thank you so much for any assistance
Alex

I have been building our family tree for some years and I have come across
this document. It is a marriage entry for Pedro Antonio Ruiz alias Carrillo
Español to Maria Catharina Bueno. For over two hundred years Carrillo has
been the family name, now this appears. Does the word alias mean the same
then as today. Does it have other meanings. Pedro and Catharina went on to
have two sons carrying the name Carrillo Bueno. Should I now view the Ruiz
lineage from this point on into the past as my lineage? Am I reading and
translating this correctly? Can anyone help address my confusion? Thanks
Juan Manuel Carrillo

Here is the link to the document:
http://interactive.ancestry.com/61089/MM9.3.1_2FTH-1-18578-30740-31/135…

I would like to know what years Zacatecas did censuses. On Guadalajara dispensas website I found one in 1850, which was great and a random find to me. I know these sensus lists were very valuable to me in finding my Mier ancestors.

If someone know what years they were done--and maybe has a link to share? That would be great.

The same info is needed for Jalisco and Aguascalientes.

Thanks

Recien acabo de encontrar una informacion que confirma que Elvira Gil de Lara la madre de Martin Vazquez de Zermeño (esposo de Ana Garcia de Miranda o Arrona)es LA MISMA que la madre de Juan Sanchez (esposo de Martha? Sanchez de Mendoza-en el registro matrimonial aparece María-)

Este interesante dato lo encontre en un libro recien publicado por don Mario Gomez Mota, Cronista de Lagos de Moreno, llamado "Bautismos, matrimonios y defunciones en el primer siglo de Santa María de los Lagos".

Dear Mary Lou,

A couple of years ago I did some research on the Venzor surname(line). Today I was looking through items in your Dropbox when I came across a family group sheet and was very surprised to find Diego Venzor as a son of Juan de Llamas and Elvira Ruiz Paez.

I put away all my Venzor research so it is not available right now. I do not descend from the Venzor family but am curious to find out if they are related to my lines through a Rubio ancestry. Do you have additional information on this family?

Venzor was spelled a few different ways so the question mark with "( sp ) "was not a surprise.

Do you have all the names of all of Diego Ochoa's children that Jaime Holcombe claims he had?

Thank you very much for sharing, your Dropbox is a treasure trove.

Rick A. Ricci

I am searching for Jose Pedro Raigosa who was born 28 Aug 1897 in Tepic his father was Pedro L Raigosa born 1860 in Tepic, Nayarit.

I believe that Jose Pedro immigrated to the US around 1912 and helped my grandmother Francisca Torres get across the border by saying she was his wife and my aunt was his daughter. I also show that he registered in San Francisco for the draft. No other known relatives. He listed the following address in one of his documents:
16 Morelos, Santiago, Tepc, Tepic Mexico. Thanks for any info

Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum,

I can't read the name of the bride's parents. Her name is Maria Teodora
Garcia. it's the first one on the right. Could someone tell me her parents
names

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6YF8-R1

Danny C. Alonso

I noticed some of the Dispensas don't have the little magnifying glass to search for names. Does that mean that those catalogs have not been integrated into the search feature and therefore won't show up as potential information. I've been going through each one year by year, page by page trying to find more information about my ancestors. Am I missing something or is this what I need to do. I couldn't find a marriage certificate for one of my ancestors so I'm hoping to find the Dispensa, it may be a long shot, but I need to try. I've exhausted just about every clue via "testigos, pardrinos, abuelos. Just want to make sure I'm not missing something. Thanks.

Hello! I am looking for more information on the origins of two families of Ponce or Ponce de Leon from Nochistlan and Mexticacan:

Sebastian Ponce de Leon who married Juana de Medina or Medinilla on 24 November 1667 in Nochistlan.

They had quite a few children:

https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenn…~

One of them, Catarina de San Juan married Miguel Nunez de Miranda and were dispensated. There is a link to and explanation of the dispensa on nuestros ranchos:

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/21417

The other family in the same period (but as without a document based connection as of yet) is that of Diego Ponce de Leon and Josefa Chavez Moya who lived in Nochistlan, Mexticacan, and Teocaltiche. They had children baptized in both Nochistlan and Teocaltiche.

There seems to be a connection with the Fernandez de Vaulus/Siordia family and the Jaugerui families of Nochistlan. I will post more information on the children of Sebastian and Diego soon, but does anyone know of a connection between these two or the origin of the Ponce de Leon families of Nochistlan? Any information will be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

Richard Ibarra

Alicia,

Can you please tell me where I can get or borrow a copy of Nochistlan de Zacatecas by Evelia Clotilde Quirarte?

I have ancestors from the Mazapil/Nochistlan area. I am looking for information about the settlers of the hacienda de San Juan, later called de Ahorcados because the local Indians attacked the settlers and hung them all. I am looking for Monico or Jose Monico Barron, born in said hacienda about 1761 and his wife Justa or Rufina or Justa Rufina Candelaria possible surname Paredes, born possibly in the same place about 1764.

I am also looking for any books about Mazapil in the 1700s. The hacienda de San Juan de Ahorcados or simply Ahorcados, was destroyed about 1771+- and rebuilt about 1776+-.

TIA for any information you can assist me with.

Elvira

---------- Original Message ----------
From: research-request@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Research Digest, Vol 123, Issue 12
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 15:07:57 -0700

Send Research mailing list submissions to
research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.nuestrosranchos.org/listinfo.cgi/research-nuestrosranchos…

or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
research-request@lists.nuestrosranchos.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
research-owner@lists.nuestrosranchos.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Research digest..."

Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
DAILY DIGEST
****************************************

Today's Topics:

1. Re: Mayans, Aztecs or que? (Danny Alonso)
2. Re: Mayans, Aztecs or que? (Juan Aguayo)
3. Aztec Lineage (morningglories@cox.net)
4. Aztec Lineage (morningglories@cox.net)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 22:37:44 -0700
From: Danny Alonso
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Mayans, Aztecs or que?
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

I had a question about the science site with the Mayan, Huichol and Nahua
mixtures but my question is not very clear. I know that some of my
ancestors were from the Caxcan tribe headed by the Mendoza's and I don't
know what happened to the Caxcan people, maybe they disappeared or maybe
they just mixed with the Spanish people like Chief Blas de Mendoza. but
does anyone know how that DNA is researched? are they part of the Mayan,
Huichol or NAhuas or have they just disappeared? so as an example say that
all my indigenous ancestors were Caxcan people from Teocaltiche and since
I don't see the Caxcan tribe listed as one of the tribes of the Native
Mexicans on the admixture picture, would my Caxcan DNA be reclassified
under another tribe or would it be redistributed among several different
tribes or just not be listed

Danny C. Alonso

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 11:12:41 -0500
From: Juan Aguayo
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Mayans, Aztecs or que?
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Danny,

Check out the following posts my prima Alicia made on Nuestros Ranchos a
few years back. I've attached them here because the Tachiquin last name is
most likely a Caxcan last name that still survives today. As far as I know
there are still some Tachiquin families in el barrio de San Sebastian in
Nochistlan, not far from Teocaltiche. I'm not sure how much of European and
other DNAs have been mixed into this family over the years. My DNA has
Caxcan DNA as most if not all of the people with ancestry in this part of
Mexico does. The Caxcanes have been mixed in with European, African, Middle
Eastern, Asian DNA's present in this part of Mexico. This is the mestisaje
that makes us Mexican. I'm not aware of any pure Caxcan people living
today, but the Tachiquin elders are probably the closest we can get to pure
Caxcan DNA. Years ago Family Tree DNA listed my indigenous DNA as Mayan,
but today it's just listed as Native American most likely because they know
there are distinct and different indigenous DNA throughout Mexico. Mayans
are quite a bit farther south in Mexico so I'm pretty sure Caxcanes are not
Mayan. Based on some quick research, there are some sites stating the
Caxcan are part of the Uto-Aztecan family as are the aztecas, huicholes,
zacatecos, nahuas and matlatzincas. Since DNA research in Mexico is in its
infancy so to speak, more refined markers identifying Caxcan DNA are not
available as far as I know. Maybe that will change with the work of Dr.
Carlos Bustamante at Stanford University.

Saludos,

Juan Aguayo

See past post below:

Lisa,

Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum,

Could someone tell me the name of the paternal granparents are for
Anastasia de la Luz Maese. its the 3rd one down on the left

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6FNN-WS

Danny C. Alonso

Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum,

Could someone tell me what the name of the maternal grandmother of Lina Oviedo is on this record:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6DM9-XR6

Danny C. Alonso

I've been unable to access the GEDCOM section here in Nuestros Ranchos.

This is the message that pops up:

Fatal error: Call to undefined function session_register() in /home/lafamilia/nuestrosranchos.org/gedcom/globallib.php on line 5

Does the moderator know about this problem?

Joseph de Leon

Alguien que me ayude con los datos del Cronista de Sayula, Jalisco

I have just posted in my Dropbox account several handwritten pages of selected extractions of the earliest Pinos parish baptism entries. This rough draft was meant to be a quick reference guide, so I only listed the year, child, father, mother and godparents. I have not proofread them. Later this year I hope to provide more Pinos data which will include the actual dates. In the interim this may help someone.

There are six pages, but somehow page 2 was missed. I'll let you know when it gets posted. Also, page 5 is very faint. Will try to correct it, but don't want to hold this up.

Mary Lou Montagna

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/yop1j3tqornd0xh/AABnVNtOvuDJtcuW0Gk5vgBHa?or…

Diego Joseph Reynoso resided in Juchipila in 1743, originally of Jalostotitlan,
and likely the same Diego Reynoso baptised in San Juan de los Lagos in 1716,
parents listed were Sancho Reynoso and Juana Garsia de Hermosillo.

Link:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-16087-16513-26?cc=1804458

Mezquital del Oro, Nuestra Señora del Rosario,
Información matrimonial 1734-1873, image 684 of 718
Key info:
Diego Joseph Reynoso the son of Sancho Reynoso and Juana Garsia
Maria de Jesus Delgadillo the daughter of Phelipe Delgadillo and
Petronila Flores de la Torre.
Diego Joseph Reynoso was age 27(born circa 1716), born in Jalostotitlan, Jalisco.
Maria de Jesus Delgadillo was age 22(born circa 1721), born in Juchipila, Zacatecas.

Following up and branching off from Nuestros Ranchos thread http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/18719?page=1

I thought this merited FRONT PAGE NEWS.

In that thread, Sr. Alex Mercado said he "just stumbled upon a marriage record for a Francisco Gutierrez married to a Juana Lomelin https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18380-1165-18?cc=1874591&wc=…

He said he was finding a lot of Guadalajara marriage records in this set 1640's - mid 1650's, which indeed there are and none which are searchable on FamilySearch.org.

In fact let me just re-post these last couple entries of the above mentioned thread

Thank you very much for sharing.
__________________________

Wonderful job Luigi (aka Alex Mercado)...WOW!!!!

You indeed found the marriage of Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio y Hermosillo and Juana de Lomelín, ancestors to many of us!!! I am stunned...jaw on the floor.

I verified the date, 21 Nov 1652, and it fits. Records indicate that Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio y Hermosillo and Juana de Lomelín began having children right around 1651-1652. We will have to re-calculate the ages of their children in light of this very concrete marriage date, 21 November 1652.

Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio y Hermosillo and Juana de Lomelín - 21 Noviembre 1652, Guadalajara

"Fran.co gutiéres, doña Ju.a Lomelín ----- En veinte y vno de noviembre de Sinqu.ta y dos su señoría Yllustríssima desposó y veló, a Fran.co gutiérres Y a doña Juana Lomelí Y assistí Yo al dicho oficio, testigos don Fran.co rincón Y don manuel gallardo. . . . Fran.co Gallegos (rúbrica) Sacristán m.or "

Fuente: Mexico, Jalisco, Catholic Church Records, 1590-1979, Guadalajara, Sagrario Metropolitano, Defunciones 1641-1730 [Image 67 of 733]

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18380-1165-18?cc=1874591&wc=…

I immediately began to transcribe it, copy the source, download the image, and insert the data and image in my family tree. Unfortunately, literally no valuable data can be gleaned from the meager record. It does not mention where they were from or even the fact that Juana was the widow of Rodrigo de Carbajal. Nothing!

Then I searched this marriage document in FamilySearch.org and nothing. So the marriages located amongst these burials are not on the FamilySearch database. We're going to have to go fishing.

Muchas muchas gracias
Tu primo Paco
Steven Francisco Hernández Gamiño y López de los Reyes

Juchipila/Moyahua Reynoso families,

Christobal de Reynoso has been proven to be the son of Diego Reynoso and Juana Lozano.

A 16 May 1741 marriage information document from Mezquital del Oro provided the
following:

Christobal de Reynoso, 20 years of age (born circa 1721), originally of Juchipila,
widow of Gertrudis Flores de la Torre, was the son of Don Diego de Reynoso y de
Juana Lozano.

Anna Maria Rubalcaba, 15 years of age (born circa 1726), originally of Teocaltiche,
was the daughter of Antonio Gonsales de Rubalcaba and Maria Ximenes (both deceased).

Link to this document;
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15212-19282-45?cc=1804458
Mezquital del Oro, Nuestra Señora del Rosario, Información matrimonial,
1741-1746, 1760-1766, 1780-1782, images 508-511 of 635

Note: Family branches of Christobal Reynoso/Juana Lozano used the Renteria
portion of the surname in whole or part; leaving no doubt that Christobal
Reynoso is the son of Diego Reynoso who married Margarita Renteria.