Hoy noté que los registros de la iglesia de San Ignacio Cerro Gordo no están disponibles en FamilySearch. (Tal vez están allí y simplemente no los he encontrado todavía).
Gaspar de Avalos cc Luisa de Quezada y Mendoza
Alonso de Avalos cc Catalina de Orosco
Gabriel de Avalos cc Maria Quezada
Sebastian de Avalos cc Mariana de Castro
Hola prim@s,
My mother in law descends from Juana Quesada y D’Avalos and Francisco Atilano. Does anybody have information on Juana Quesada y DAvalos? My mother in law descends from a daughter, Maria Cuevas, that did not use either of their surnames. Maria Cuevas married Jose López Leon in 1702 in Lagos de Moreno, Jalisco.
Does anybody have information on Juana Quesada y DAvalos and how she is related to the people named in this thread?
Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci
On 27 Sep 1638, in San Luis Potosí, Gabriel de Ávalos y Alarcón, resident of this pueblo, promised to pay Bachiller Diego Vigil Quiñones 180 pesos for 6 burros, male and female and of different colors. Perhaps he was going into business with his brother, Sebastian de Ávalos, who lived in SLP and who was an arriero? The previous 21 Oct 1637, he was living in Lagos de Moreno, when he promised to pay Esteban de Anda 94 pesos. His creditor for that loan was Alonso de Ávalos Ludena, if you all remember. Though Gabriel’s daughter, Isabel, used the “Alarcón” surname, this is the only time I’ve seen him using it. I’ve also seen him referred to as “Gabriel de Ávalos Villaseñor.”
On 13 Oct 1638 in San Luis Potosí, Gaspar de Ávalos granted powers to Gabriel de Ávalos “su hermano”, both residents of San Luis Potosí. Unfortunately, the document is damaged, so I’m unable to decipher what the cause was, but, finally! A document establishing that Gaspar and Gabriel de Ávalos were brothers!
So, that brings us to five:
- Gabriel de Ávalos y Alarcón cc María Catalina de Quezada y Mendoza
- Capitán Gaspar de Ávalos Ludena cc Luisa de Quezada y Mendoza
- Alonso de Ávalos Ludena cc doña Catalina de Orozco
- Sebastián de Ávalos cc Mariana de Castro.
- Juan de Ávalos. Matado en Huaniqueo, padre natural de Bartolomé de Ávalos.
Who was Joseph de Avalos y Aldana?
On 13 Feb 1715, in Guadalajara, Joseph Arias and Lorenza de Luviano (sic) did their IM (an extract can be found in Sagrada Mitra #1365). Lorenza de Luviano was originally from Aguascalientes, but as a child, had moved to Irapuato, where she met and married Joseph de Avalos y Aldana; they were living in Queretaro when he died. Though her parents aren’t named, two of the witnesses that she presented were Diego and Francisco Contreras, who identified themselves as her brothers, so she was probably a daughter of Nicolas Contreras and his first wife, Catalina Luebana, whereas they are sons of his second marriage, to Elvira Delgado.
But what caught my attention, was Joseph de Avalos y Aldana, who Lorenza said had “died about a month before in the city of Queretaro, in the Real Carcel, where he had been for about a year, after being arrested for certain crimes.” The Malos Davalos strike again!! Here is his burial registry, 15 Jan 1715, “fue muerto por la justicia … y está sepultado su cuerpo en la capilla de San Joseph de los naturales de esta ciudad,” suggesting that he was executed. I’ve been unable to find any record of their marriage, so I still don’t know who Joseph de Avalos y Aldana was. With those two surnames, I can’t help but think that he somehow descends from Baltasar de Avalos y Tovar cc Juana Ruiz de Aldana. But seeing how he lived in Irapuato, that suggests that he descends from Gaspar de Avalos, since we know that he had a presence there. Anybody?
I hope 2022 is treating you all well!
Manny Díez Hermosillo
Hola prim@s,
I’ve located another son for Gabriel de Avalos. On 4 Dec 1676 in San Luis Potosi, Luis de Avalos, resident of la ciudad de Zacatecas, filed a petition regarding some livestock that his father, Gabriel de Avalos, had bequeathed him and two other brothers, some 23 years earlier, when he died in Aguascalientes. As the three were young at the time, the livestock ended up in the possession of their older brother, Pedro de Avalos, who had brought them to his rancho in the jurisdiction of San Luis Potosi. Pedro had continued to administer these animals on behalf of his brothers, but he had died recently, and in his testamento, he neglected to mention this arrangement, and how these animals needed to be distributed among the brothers. So now the three surviving brothers had to do the necessary paperwork, so that they could receive their father’s inheritance.
This document gives us some new information regarding Gabriel de Avalos and his offspring. We now know that he died around 1653 in Aguascalientes. Up to this time, I only knew of four children for him and Maria aka Catalina de Quezada y Mendoza:
1. Isabel de Avalos Villasenor, b. 22 Feb 1616, Sta Ma de ls Lagos; cc Diego de Carrion
2. Maria de Avalos, b. 9 Sep 1618, Sta Ma de los Lagos; cc Juan de Morales
3. Pedro de Avalos, c. 24 Jan 1627, San Matias, Pinos. Single, with issue.
4. Joseph de Avalos, b. 28 Dec 1625, c. 24 Jan 1627, San Matias, Pinos.
After the baptism of Joseph in Dec 1625, Maria de Quezada drops off the map. She could’ve died any time after that. There was a Gabriel de Avalos married to Augustina de Velasco, who baptized Nicolas on 26 Jul 1639 in San Luis Potosi. Knowing that our Gabriel de Avalos was living in San Luis Potosi during those years, this was likely him. Augustina de Velasco, viuda de Gabriel de Avalos, died and was buried on 4 Jul 1660, in Villa de los Lagos.
On 25 Feb 1645, a Luis de Avalos married Gertrudis Ponce in Sierra de Pinos; their padrinos were Diego de Carrion and his wife, Isabel de Avalos. This is likely the same Luis de Avalos who filed the petition on 4 Dec 1676. The thing is, on their marriage record, both he and Gertrudis Ponce were said to be Mestizos, and as far as I know, Gabriel de Avalos and both of his wives were of the Spanish caste. Though it’s possible that Luis’ Mestizo designation is a typo, it does open the possibility that he was born to another woman, who was either a Mestiza or an Indian. Suppose that Maria Quezada did die shortly after the birth of Joseph de Avalos in 1625; Luis could’ve been born in 1627, between Gabriel’s marriages, making Luis 18 when he married in 1645. I suppose the only way to find out would be to find Gabriel de Avalos’ testamento, which we now know would’ve been done in Aguascalientes/Nueva Galicia around 1653. As far as the other two brothers mentioned in the petition, their identities are unknown, but they might be Joseph de Avalos Quezada and Nicolas de Avalos Velasco.
Be well!
Manny Díez Hermosillo
Manny,
this is always my favorite family of any in my genealogy. i've been away from genealogy for a little bit and am just now getting back to into it. but, i notice you list gabriel de avalos as Gabriel de Ávalos y Alarcón and i was wondering if we know where that alarcon comes from or if we're any closer to nameing the parents. im guessing the Alarcon comes from the parents of Isabel de Alarcon who was married to Alonso de Quesada. I really need to get familiar with these families again
Danny
Hi Danny,
I still don’t know the origins of this family, so I don’t know where those additional surnames come from.
Gabriel de Avalos is called “Gabriel de Avalos y Alarcon” in this document: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSC6-QSBJ-Y?cat=3751635
He was also called “Gabriel de Avalos Villaseñor” in his son-in-law Diego de Carrion’s testamento: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-G58F-SWHC?i=149&cc=204…
Alonso de Avalos signed his name “Alonso de Avalos Ludeña” when he cosigned for Gabriel de Avalos on 21 Oct 1637: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9BF-W9NY-Y?cat=35680
And Gaspar de Avalos was called “Gaspar de Avalos Ludeña in his daughter Andrea’s marriage record: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-G5RT-X?i=436&wc=3J6F-3…
In “Retoños,” Gonzalez-Leal suggested that these families might descend from Don Gonzalo de Avalos, “encomendero de Zacapu en Michoacán, hijo de Pedro de Avalos y de María de Muñoz,” that “Gonzalo de Avalos fue genearca de una vieja familia radicada sucesivamente en Michoacán, Maravatio y Queretaro, enlazadas sucesivamente con los Villaseñor-Cervantes a quienes correspondía el apellido de Tovar”. But he doesn’t detail how they might descend from him. It’s an ongoing project! According to my last post, Gabriel de Avalos died in Aguascalientes and he left a testamento: I’m sure he names his parents in that document, but it’s just a matter of locating it, if it still exists.
Great to hear from you, and I hope you’re well!
Manny Díez Hermosillo
Thank you for the updates on the Avalos. I certainly hope you find the answers to those questions on the origins of this family and the testamento. When you do find them, you can write a book on their adventures. Thanks for sharing.
Sara Rodriguez
Hola Manny te felicito por tu investigación! La he leído con mucho interés puesto que Gaspar de Ávalos y Luisa de Quesada y Mendoza son mis antepasados, por medio de su hija María de Quesada casada con Luis del Castillo y de León.
Quiero añadir que no sé de dónde obtuve el dato que establece la sepultura de Gaspar de Ávalos el 24 de Septiembre de 1654 en El Sagrario, SLP. Sin embargo busqué el acta y no encuentro alguna de defunción para esos años, tal vez tu puedas encontrarla y pasarme el link, porque solo veo disponibles en Familysearch las de bautismo para esos años.
No obstante puede que lo anterior sea erróneo, puesto que el 4 de octubre de 1654, Gaspar es padrino junto a su hija Andrea de Nicolás, hijo de Luis del Castillo y Ana de la Cruz.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-SYH4-S?i=211&wc=3PH4-VZ9%3…
También mencionar que las hijas de Gaspar y Luisa utilizaron con mayor frecuencia el apellido Quesada. Te paso así mismo el acta bautismal de su nieto Nicolás, hijo de María de Quesada y Luis del Castillo. Fueron padrinos Felipe? de Ávalos y Antonia Ruiz.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-SYHQ-B?i=212&wc=3PH4-VZ9%3…
Familiar de Luisa de Quesada pudo ser Francisca de Quesada, casada con José Montoya, padres de María que casó con Nicolás del Castillo y González el 9 de Febrero de 1682 en Armadillo.
Espero te ayuden estos datos, te agradezco nos hagas saber a qué conclusiones vas llegando.
Enrique Agraz
This is absolutely fascinating Manny. I'm anxiously awaiting any new information about this family.
Paige
Dear Manny,
I agree, genealogy is not boring. I loved the story on the Avalos brothers. I have Ruiz and Velasco so now I wonder if some of their ancestors were Avalos.
Thanks for the stories,
Rick A. Ricci
Hi Chris,
I haven't come upon Juana de Avalos cc Francisco Calderon, looks like they lived in Fresnillo? I'll keep my eyes open. Joseph Diaz de Leon was son of Antonio Diaz and Teresa Ruiz de Lisalde, right?
Hi Danny,
I'm still sitting back, regarding the "Avalos Villaseñor" link, there's still too little information in regards. It's like the "Garcia" that Gaspar's children used in their names. If something comes up, I'll post in this thread.
Hola Enrique,
Gracias por su comentario, tambien por los datos, no tenia algunos. De que las hijas de Gaspar utilizaban "Quesada" es muy util. De la dicha fecha del entierro de Gaspar de Avalos, sera un error; por lo visto estaba vivo durante la causa contra sus hijos en el Feb 1657. Gracias, es que pongo tantos datos!
GASPAR DE AVALOS EN LAGOS
I checked the registries at the Biblioteca del Estado de Jalisco, and there is a reference to Gaspar de Avalos and his sons, Nicolas and Juan, being "removed" from the parish of Santa Maria de Lagos:
Archivo de la Real Audiencia Ramo Civil y Criminal:
http://www.bpej.udg.mx/
Ramo: Criminal
Año 1 1665/ Año 2 1667
Progresivo 2710, Caja 174, Exp 6
Nombre 2: DE AVALOS GASPAR, DE AVALOS JUAN, GARCIA NICOLAS, PEREZ JUAN
Lugar: LAGOS
Documentos referentes a las discrepancias entre los tribunales eclesiásticos y civiles, a causa de que el artículo de inmunidad de la iglesia no fuera respetado por el Teniente Provincial de la Hermandad de Lagos al sacar de la parroquia a Gaspar de Ávalos, Juan de Ávalos, García Nicolás y Juan Pérez, reos acusados de robo.
Being an index, it gives no details, and apparently, the record is from decades later (1665/1667). It appears to be about some discrepancies in the handling of the case. It does document that Gaspar and sons were arrested for robbery in Lagos - and likely, expelled.
The last time I have Gaspar de Avalos living in Lagos was 4 Jul 1638 - when they baptized Mariana in Sagrario SLP. I don't think they ever returned to Los Altos, from what I've seen and posted.
Thanks for the compliments and comments!
Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Hi Manny,
Yes Juana de Ávalos y Villaseñor and Francisco de Calderon were from Fresnillo, Zacatecas, but some of their children show them in Asientos, Aguascalientes. The children I can find were baptized in Aguascalientes between 1695 and 1701. But, I think Juana de Ávalos y Villaseñor and Francisco de Calderon were married around 1685. The Padrinos don't really tell me anything, two of their children's padrinos were Manuel de Avila and Maria Luevana and the last child's padrinos were Joseph Ximenez and Antonia Ximenez. Other than that I can't find anything on them. Juana de Ávalos used only Ávalos that I can see. Her daughter, Leogarda Calderon, that married Joseph Díaz de León, uses her mother's Villaseñor and refers to her mother alternately as Juana de Ávalos, Juana de Villaseñor, or Juana de Ávalos y Villaseñor. I think my Juana de Ávalos probably connects to these other Ávalos and would like to figure out how.
Chris
Manny,
Is the Alonso de Quesada you talk about as the possible father of Luisa Quesada the same Alonso de Quesada y Puga that was the Alferez Real that's mentioned on this website about the Mendozas. i dont know what it says but it looks like it lists his parents. but he also seems kinda prestigious to be connected to the criminal Avalos family.
https://www.uam.es/personal_pdi/ciencias/depaz/mendoza/mquesada.htm
Danny C. Alonso
Hi Chris,
There was Nicolas de Avalos Villaseñor cc Ynes de Ortega Bocanegra (daughter of Francisco Macias cc Jacinta de Ortega). They baptized Ynes, Maria, Teresa, Augustina and Francisco, between 1652-1664; they flipflop between Lagos and Aguas, finally settling in Aguas. Have you chased that lead?
At Aguascalientes Acervos Historicos: Ines de Ortega con poder de Nicolas Davalos Villaseñor sells a predio rustico to Francisco Muñoz de Hermosillo, 04 Jun 1689.
Yes, Danny, that's the same Alonso Quezada.
Saludos,
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Manny, I had a question about the last post about Ynes de Ortega Bocanegra. Do you know where she got Bocanegra? on this post by Mary Lou:
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/23350
she says that Jacinta de Ortega was the hija natural of Maria Nuñez y Velez and Alonso Perez de Ortega. Do you know which one, Alonso Perez de Ortega or Maria Nuñez has the Bocanegra line.
Danny C. Alonso
Hi Manny,
I have looked at Nicolás de Ávalos Villaseñor before, but so far haven't been able to make a connection. I actually think that he and Ynes de Ortega do fit the timeframe quite well. I've come across other Juana de Ávalos's and Juana de Villaseñor's, but, they've been married to other spouses and haven't come across anything that suggested they were married more than once. I'll keep looking. Thanks Manny.
Chris
Hola prim@s,
Here some more info on some of the individuals mentioned in the causa criminal from 1681:
PEDRO DE AVALOS Y SU HERMANA MARIA DE MENDOZA
Juan de la Rosa was son of Pedro de Avalos, who had a sister named Maria de Mendoza. Antonio Morales cc Beatriz Diaz was a co-defendant of Juan de la Rosa, he was son of Maria de Mendoza, sister of Pedro de Avalos.
Maria Mendoza married (velados) Juan de Morales 16 Jan 1648, San Matias, Pinos, Zac. Juan Morales is likely son of Francisco Morales and Juana de Navarrete, of Pinos.
1668 SLP Padron, here's Rancho de Pedro de Avalos; living with him are Maria Quesada, Juan Morales and Geronimo Morelos. Left image center: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-5YSR-W?i=1148&wc=3NTX-VZ9
My guess is this is the same Maria Mendoza, and Juan Morales is her son, Juan, baptized 24 Nov 1647, Pinos, Zac. Seeing her use "Quesada" as well as "Mendoza," implies she is a child of Maria Quesada or Luisa Quesada, both who lived in Pinos around the time she married in 1648. She might be Maria, baptized 09 Sep 1618, in Lagos, daughter of Gabriel de Avalos and Maria Quesada, since we know that Maria Quesada, daughter of Gaspar de Avalos and Luisa Quesada, married Luis del Castillo, 06 Feb 1645, in Armadillo SLP. That said, Maria de Mendoza and Pedro de Avalos are likely children of Gabriel de Avalos and Maria Quesada.
Pedro de Avalos was deceased by Jun 1681; his son, Juan de la Rosa, his sister, Maria de Mendoza, and her son, Antonio Morales, would be living on his rancho. Here they are, in the Apr 1681 SLP Padron. Left image center:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939L-DSSF-MY?i=994&wc=3JMN-YWL
Juan de la Rosa and Antonio Morales were both convicted for aiding & abetting Juan de Avalos, in 1681; Juan de la Rosa was sentenced to 3 years expulsion from SLP, to be spent in the service of the King in the Islas Filipinas (likely on the galleys), and fined 80 pesos. Antonio Morales was expelled for 1 year, and fined 100 pesos.
Juan de la Rosa and Antonio Morales, having completed their sentences, both appear in the 1684 SLP Padron (left image center):
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939L-DX9V-FQ?i=356&wc=3JMN-GP8
AUGUSTIN DE AVALOS
I still don't know what Augustin de Avalos was charged with in 1681, nor how long he was in jail in SLP. I did find him living in Zacatecas, on 25 Aug 1686, when his daughter, Lucia, contracted marriage with Simon de Oviedo. Lucia had been living in Zacatecas for about 12 years (1674), was still living with her father, and was also using the "Ruiz de Avalos" surname. Augustin was going by "Augustin Lopez de Avalos." I've never seen "Lopez de Avalos" associated with this family, so it's likely an alias.
Both of his sons, Sebastianillo de Avalos and Joseph Ruiz de Avalos "Chepillo," were accused of being part of Juan de Avalos' gang, in 1681. As far as I know, Sebastillo went on to get married and lived in Venado, SLP. I still haven't located Chepillo Ruiz de Avalos.
YNES DE ORTEGA BOCANEGRA
Hi Danny,
I'm sorry, I don't have any info on that dynasty.
Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Thank you Manny for giving us this information. I love hearing about this family. they're very interesting. Please let us know if you find more information about them. And thank you for getting back to me about Ynes de Ortega.
Danny C. Alonso
Manny I just found some info about Nicolás de Avalos Villaseñor, he is mentioned in "Familias y Casas de la Vieja Valladolid", he is reported as " oriundo de Lagos, e hijo legítimo de Don Baltasar Davalos Tovar y de Doña Lucina Ruíz de Aldana... " ir is also stated that he married in Zamora, Mich. On aug-25-1641 yo Doña Inés Macías Ortega!
From what I see Lucina Ruíz de Aldana is the same Juana Ruíz de Aldana who married Baltasar Davalos on 8-may-1618.
I have followed the line of one of the siblings of Nicolás adn Inés Macías Ortega named Pedro, who was born around 1642 and married around 1669 to Josefa de Velasco y Munguia
Hola Manny!
Acabo de leer una publicación de nuestro compañero genealogista Rodolfo Hernández Chavez en un grupo de Genealogía e Historia de los Altos de Jalisco, donde menciona la filiación de Gabriel de Avalos y Gaspar de Avalos como hijos de Alonso de Avalos y Doña Catarina de Orozco, y sus esposas María y Luisa de Quesada, como hijas de Don Alonso de Quesada y Doña Juana Baptista Hernández de Arellano y Hurtado de Mendoza. Se menciona que esta información es extraída de la obra de Don Mariana González Leal "Retoños de España en la Nueva Galicia". Más abajo te dejo parte del texto de la publicación ¿Crees que la información dada por Don Mariano González Leal confirma completamente la identidad de los padres de los hermanos Avalos y las hermanas Quesada? De ser así después de todo nuestros antepasados algo conflictivos venían de familia colonial algo prestigiosa sobretodo por el lado Quesada. ¿Qué opinas al respecto? ¿Alguien más del foro que quiera aportarnos algún comentario?
Publicación de Rodolfo H Hernández Chavez:
"...También originario de Úbeda, en los Reinos de Castilla, fue Don Gonzalo de Avalos, encomendero de Zacapu en Michoacán, hijo de Pedro de Avalos y de María de Muñoz, hijodalgo notorios; a quien el Gran Maestro Don Mariano González Leal señala como posible tronco de la familia “Avalos-Ludeña”, “Avalos-Villaseñor” ó “Avalos-Tovar”, y de quien al respecto escribió en su magna obra de Retoños de España en la Nueva Galicia: “Gonzalo de Avalos fue genearca de una vieja familia radicada sucesivamente en Michoacán, Maravatio y Queretaro, enlazadas sucesivamente con los Villaseñor-Cervantes a quienes correspondía el apellido de Tovar”. siendo de llamar profundamente la atención, que la rama alteña procede de Alonso de Avalos y Doña Catarina de Orozco, registrados en las primeras décadas del siglo XVII en los libros sacramentales de Santa María de los Lagos y avecindados por lo menos hasta 1649 en la jurisdicción de Jalostotitlán donde a 5 leguas se ubica la “Estancia de Alonso de Avalos”, lugar en el que vivía en compañía de su mujer Doña Catalina de Orozco, y algunos de sus hijos que permanecían aún sin casar; debiendo ser, tal vez sus hijos mayores: Gabriel de Avalos, casado el 26 de Noviembre de 1613 en Lagos con Doña María de Quesada y Sánchez de Mendoza –hija de Don Alonso de Quesada y de Doña Juana Baptista Hernández de Arellano y Hurtado de Mendoza-; Baltasar de Avalos-Tovar, Casado el 8 de Mayo de 1618 con Doña Juana Ruiz de Aldana quienes darán origen a la “Estancia de Baltasar de Avalos”, registrada así en el padrón laguense de 1669 y conocida posteriormente como “Lo de Avalos”; Gaspar de Avalos-Ludeña casado por 1620 con Doña Luisa de Quesada y Sánchez de Mendoza, hermana de Doña María de Quesada ó María de Mendoza; Doña Juana de Avalos, madre de Juan de Orozco que casó con María de Quesada y Alvarado, hija de Francisco de Quesada y Sánchez de Mendoza –hermano de Doña María y de Doña Luisa de Quesada-, y de su esposa Catalina de los Ángeles Alvarado; Doña Ysabel Avalos-Ludeña / “Ysabelde Orozco”, esposa de Don Sebastián Pérez de Ortega; y a caso Doña María de Ludeña, casada en Patzcuaro y, velada el 26 de Noviembre de 1615 en Lagos con Rodrigo de Órnelas y Mendoza… ¿Tal vez?, debamos de incluir como hijo de Alonso de Avalos y de Catalina de Orozco, a Francisco de Avalos, esposo de María de Espitia, quien según investigaciones de Don Jaime Holcombe procreó en Beatriz Sánchez de Lara –también conocida como Beatriz Sánchez de Carranza, Beatriz Sánchez de Mendoza ó Beatriz Gómez propietaria de una casa en la Villa de los Lagos, descrita en el padrón de 669 como “Casa de María Gómez Viuda”, donde vivía Antonia de Avalos doncella, en compañía de Bernarda Ortiz doncella, y de la “Estancia de San Nicolás de la Ciénega” en la jurisdicción de San Juan/Jalostotitlán, registrada en los padrones de 1670 como “Rancho de Beatriz Gómez”, y en los de 1672, 1673 y 1679 como “Estancia de Beatriz Gómez”, donde vivía en compañía de sus hijos y nietos-, a: Ysabel de Avalos/Ysabel Sanchez Carranza, mujer de José Leonel de Cervantes y Orozco, indiscutiblemente su consanguíneo por ser hijo de Leonel de Cervantes y de Doña Leonor de Orozco; Agustina de Avalos, madre de Juana Gómez; Luisa de Avalos, esposa de José Soto, registrados con rancho propio en 1679; y Bernardino de Avalos, esposo de su consanguínea Doña Josefa Pérez de Bocanegra y Sánchez de Avalos. Todos ellos referidos en las informaciones matrimoniales como “hermanos carnales”, cuyos descendientes según los propios registros sacramentales hicieron uso del apellido compuesto “Avalos-Villaseñor...”
Manny,
I tried to translate the above post, but it didn't translate it all correctly. Is this saying that the Villasenor Cervantes are connected to our Avalos an Avalos y Villasenor? Does it say how? Theres too many names and I think it got confused translating it. also is it saying the Don Gonzalo de Avalos mention in the second paragraph is the father of Alonso de Avalos that's married to Catarina d Orozco.
Danny C. Alonso
I still have not fully absorbed the previous post of the Avalos Saga. With this new post if I understood correctly, are the same Cervantes that have a long line listed in Familysearch to the 1200. With several Conquistadors (Leonel de Cervantes L43M-MS9 ID on Familysearch.
One of the daughters Beatris de Andrade Cervantes who married Conquistador Juan de Jaramillo (el Mozo) was married to La Malinche (Marina) and was the guard to Moctezuma when, if I read correctly, was killed.
Also Mentioned in Retoños de España en la Nueva Galicia by Mariano Gonzales Leal was another daughter Ana de Cervantes b:1510 married a Don Alonso de Villanueba. Does anyone know anything about Villanuebas if they are the same as those from Guanajuato that married into cervantes, rocha, perez, Sandovals, Ortas, Pina and others in Villa de Reyes?
I just found a paternal link to the villanuebas in 1750 in Villa de Reyes, SLP, Mexico.
Dear Simona,
This Cervantes line goes back much further than 1200 through a maternal ancestor. That line goes back many, many more centuries because she descended from a rabbinic line that kept very good records of the the family line. Part of the family ended up in Germany and kept up the family tree, just adding generation after generation over the years.
The Bocanegra name you mentioned also goes back many centuries and there is a family connection to many cardinals and Popes.
R.A.Ricci
Hola prim@s,
I found some more pieces to the puzzle:
From the Causa Criminal of Juan de la Rosa, we know that he’s the son of Pedro de Avalos, brother of Maria de Mendoza aka Maria de Quesada, who I suggested is the same who married Juan Morales, 16 Jan 1648, San Matias Pinos (source: Pinos Extracts, by Mary Lou Montagna). I also posed that she’s the same Maria that Gabriel de Avalos and Maria Quesada baptized, 09 Sep 1618, Santa Maria de Lagos: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KWZ1-C?i=291&wc=3JDH-PTL
This is the certification for said marriage of Juan Morales cc Maria de Avalos, issued 15 Nov 1646, at Convento de San Augustin, Yuriria, Gto. This establishes that Juan Morales is the son of Francisco Morales and Juana Navarrete (of Sierra de Pinos), and that Maria is the daughter of Gabriel de Avalos and Maria Quesada:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-BGKB-2?i=249&wc=3NYY-2NL
It’s odd that this certification was done in Yuriria, Gto, while the marriage took place in Sierra de Pinos, but it does link one of the bridal couple to Yuriria Gto. I’d say Maria, since we’ve already placed Avalos OMG in Irapuato (44 miles south of Yuriria), in 1642-43. That’s likely where Gabriel de Avalos dies, since he drops off the map.
Gabriel de Avalos and Maria Quesada confirmed Pedro, along with Joseph, on 24 Jan 1627, San Matias, Pinos (source: Pinos Extracts, by Mary Lou Montagna).
From the same extracts, Luis de Avalos married Gertrudis Ponce, 25 Feb 1645, San Matias, Pinos. Parents aren’t named, but padrinos were Diego Carrion and Ysabel de Avalos Villaseñor, who was daughter of Gabriel de Avalos and Maria Quesada. Luis is likely their son, too.
AVALOS TOBAR Y CERVANTES VILLASEÑOR
During my research in Leon, Gto, I’ve come upon Alguacil Mayor Gonzalo de Avalos Villaseñor cc Juana Gomez de Espejo. I had them flagged, with 3 sons, born in Leon, Gto, and 1 in Guadalajara, Jal., between 1653-1665, though I didn’t have their ancestry.
While going through Archidiocesis de Morelia IMs, I hit the jackpot, and located theirs, 26 Sep 1650:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939L-DZZJ-S?i=182&wc=3JMY-2NL
“Gonzalo de Cervantes y Villaseñor,” as he’s named, was born 1621 in Valladolid, Mich, son of Gonzalo de Avalos Tobar and Antonia Hurtado de Mendoza (both deceased), and Juana Gomez de Espejo was daughter of Domingo Hernandez Gamiño and Juana Gomez de Espejo.
There you go: “Avalos Tobar,” linked to “Cervantes Villaseñor.” So, it’s possible that Baltasar de Avalos Tobar and his sister, Juana de Avalos, are siblings, or at least primos hermanos, of Gaspar, Gabriel, Alonso and Sebastian de Avalos.
From the looks of it, Gonzalo de Avalos Tobar cc Antonia Hurtado de Mendoza was also their contemporary, so he might be a brother or primo hermano. I just had a breakthrough with one of my Valladolid Mich lines, so I’ll be digging around those archives, I’ll keep my eyes open for him.
Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Dear Manny,
You have done great work. Now it's time for me to jump in.
Gonzalo Villasenor d' Avalos (born abt. 1570) is the son of Diego D' Villasenor Tovar y Orosco (bap. 13/Apr/1543, m. abt. 1568, d. Feb.1610) and Jeronima d' Avalos y Gomez.
Diego d' Villasenor Tovar y Orosco (bap. 13/Apr/1543, m. Ant 1568, d. Feb.1610 is the son of Conquistador Juan de Villaseñor Tovar y Orosco (m. 1532, d. 24/May/1566) and Catalina Cervantes (b. 1516)
Capitan Juan de Villaseñor Tovar y Orosco Is the son of Diego de Villaseñor Tovar II and Guiomar de Orosco y Sandoval
Catalina Cervantes is the daughter of Leonel Cervantes and Leonor Lara y Andrade
I have the Cervantes line going back centuries through a maternal Jewish line from the house of David (ha- Levi). The Cervantes line also hooks up with the Boccanegra Italian family. This family's ancestors are not Jewish. This Boccanegra family I have also traced for centuries, again mainly through a maternal line and it hooks up with many priests, cardinals , and Popes in the family, I have many more stories on their ancestors that I have already collected in my book
Besides Gonzalo, I have Diego de Villasenor and Jeronima de Avalos y Gomez as the parents of Juan Mattias Villasenor married to Isabel d' Arteaga y Dejo and another Diego Villaseñor.
Thanks again for the many D' Avalos stories. .
Rick A. Ricci
Source:mygenes2000, R. A. Ricci
Hi, Rick A. Ricci, I have a doubt about your post. Who is the Gonzalo Villaseñor de Avalos that are you talking about?
-The Gonzalo de Avalos Tobar that married with Antonia de Hurtado Mendoza or his son (Gonzalo Cervantes de Villaseñor also Gonzalo de Avalos Villaseñor? Or I am misundesrtanding everything.
Because if it is the same one, then you have proven the direct connection with Capt Juan de Villaseñor Tovar y Orozco.
Cheers, Daniel.
Juana Gomez de Espejo (II) is the daughter of Domingo Hernandez Gamino y Velasquez and Juana Gomez del Espejo (I).
Domingo Hernandez Gamino is the son of Juan Hernandez Gamino and Ana Velasquez
Juana Gomez del Espejo (I) is the daughter of Miguel Dominguez del Espejo and Isabel Gomez Maldonado
Isabel Gomez Maldonado is the daughter of Gaspar Maldonado and Juana Gomez
R.A.Ricci
Hola Salvador,
Gracias por compartir, hay mucha buena información en su mensaje. Esperaba que don Mariano tenía algo que decir acerca de Los Avalos, aunque sea poco y conjeturas, pero sí nos da dirección. De que Gonzalo de Avalos puede ser el genearca de la familia alteña, tiene sentido, buscare documentacion para verificarlo. Ademas Don Mariano parece estar de acuerdo en que María y Luisa de Quezada y Mendoza eran hermanas e hijas de Alonso Quezada y Juana Bautista Sánchez de Mendoza. ¡Gracias!
Hi Danny,
The article quotes Don Mariano Gonzalez-Leal, who names Gonzalo de Avalos as a POSSIBLE origin of the Avalos-Ludeña, Avalos-Villaseñor and Avalos-Tobar surnames in Los Altos, since his descendants intermarried with the Villaseñor-Cervantes families (with whom the “Tovar” surname is associated). He mentions Alonso de Avalos and Catalina de Orozco as the possible parents of Gabriel, Baltasar, Juana and Gaspar de Avalos. He also muses that Maria and Luisa de Quezada are sisters, and daughters of Alonso Quezada and Juana Bautista Sanchez de Mendoza. It is conjecture, and it’s written in that tone, so there’s no confirmation. Nonetheless, the Gonzalo de Avalos/Villaseñor-Cervantes lead is a very good one, and one I will pursue.
Gracias y saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Thank you Manny for explaining the article. I realy think there has to be a connection with the Cervantes Villasenor family. I hope we're able to make that connection at some point. Thank you for all your hard work Manny.
Danny C. Alonso
Segun su acta de bautizo, Don José Guadalupe Padilla de la Torre (1861–1929) nace en Tres Palos.
Lo que se encuentra en linea es minimo:
DE LOS SITIOS OFICIALES:
La localidad de Tres Palos está situada en el Municipio de San Ignacio Cerro Gordo (o, de la Trasquila por la lana que se produce,) en el Estado de Jalisco. Hay 39 habitantes. Tres Palos está a 2,030 metros de altitud.
En ANALES DEL MINISTERIO DE FOMENTO DE LA REPÚBLICA MEXICANA, TOMO 9, en el indice alfabetico de todos los puntos poblados del Estado, se menciona indicando su categoria.
Localidad: Tres Palos
Municipalidad: Arandas
Canton.: 3o
Categoria: Rancho
(Pagina 188)
La COLECCIÓN DE LOS DECRETOS: CIRCULARES Y ÓRDENES DE LOS PODERES LEGISLATIVO Y EJECUTIVO DEL ESTADO DE JALISCO, TOMO 6, menciona en "La linea divisoria del municipio de Arandas, con el S. Miguel el Alto, se fija: partiendo del punto de Tamera Vieja en las cumbres del cerrito del Salto: Puerta de la Rosa de Castilla y Mesa de los Caballos; abarca el cerro del Caracol, que con el rancho de los Tres palos, queda entre la demarcacion de Arandas; de dicho cerro se dirige a la cabeza de la Canada de los Nogales, y por su fondo baja al Embolismo, que es su punto de interseccion con el arroyo de los Tres Palos, y el de partida en la linea de Arandas con Tepatitlan..."
(Paginas 121-122)
Del PLAN DE DESARROLLO MUNICIPAL DE SAN IGNACIO CERRO GORDO, JALISCO, 2015-2035:
"Se distribuyen las zonas de cultivos del territorio de San Ignacio Cerro Gordo
de la manera: ganadero, es la zona de la carretera parte norte hacia Atotonilco
el Alto; también es territorio ganadero de Bellavista a Tres Palos y por el lado de Los
Dolores. De cultivo para maíz, se destinan las orillas de las carreteras, más la parte de
Higuerillas y en esta misma parte se deja como zacate para ganado es hacia el oeste del
territorio y una parte después de Higuerillas...
...Contamos además, con ruinas hacendarias en el rancho de Tres Palos, con caminos
reales en diferentes zonas del municipio y se tienen algunos lugares donde se realizaron
gestos históricos de la guerra cristera."
Yup I know this is not from our area of research but I still need help with a surname.
I agree with Manny. The long part of the "f" lost some ink in the middle, so it's hard to see it as one letter. Notice the "j" in the word "hijo" above has the same issue, but the line is a bit darker. The "difta" is a separate abbreviation.
Rosalinda
thanks for looking over the message and comments. joseph
I see "Delfin," followed by “di.fta” - the abbreviation of “difunta” or “deceased.”
Manny Díez Hermosillo
Greetings everyone: I am looking for information about the mother of Mariana de Mendoza y Velasco. She was the wife of Capt.
The word you are referring to is "Velóse" which refers to a ceremony which takes place after the actual marriage sacrament. "Consistía en unir con un manto a los cónyuges en la misa nupcial celebrada inmediatamente después del casamiento"
Oxford Dictionary
Daniel Méndez de Torres y Camino
How do we find out our Indigenous tribe of our grandparents if there were never records like the colonizers made the northern tribes do.There is no paper trails for our lineage for tribal affiliation
It all depends. In some communities, if you’re lucky, they do name the person's tribe. For instance, I was just looking at marriage records in Venado, SLP, early 1700s, and some individuals are listed as “Indio Tlascalteco,” and others as “Tarasco,” and yet others as “Guachichile.” I've also seen records from Chihuahua during the 1800s, that would name "Apaches" and "Comanches," etc. But for the most part, you’ll just get the generic “India/o.” It’s hit & miss. Just keep digging through the archives.
You can also use DNA: Ancestry has my indigenous DNA being predominantly from central Chihuahua: my most recent ancestors documented as Indigenous (whose DNA would likely be the only ones registering) lived in Satevó and in Cusihuiriachi: from looking at an interactive map of first nations that I saw online, I know that the local tribes in those places were Concho and Rarámuri, respectively. I have earlier Indigenous ancestors from the Mexican interior, but they are too far back in my lines to register.
I hope that helps - good luck!
Manny Díez Hermosillo
Thank you yes its a quest because none of my Tias or Tios know anything my grandfather said it was by choice before he passed away..My Grandmother died when i was younger.I would have love to hear her stories..The journey has been many years and i wont stop.I think its very important for us to grow and spread our nation to say We are still here, not by the colonizers standard but by our ancestors lineage..
Hello Group,
According to My 2grgrandfather Pablo Donate's informacion matrimonial, he was married in Asientos, but was from Agostadero. Where do I search for birth info?
Thanks so much,
Alice BB
Hi Alice,
Daniel is correct, there were various haciendas by that name. If your ancestor was married in Asientos, then he was likely from the Agostadero located nearby, and which today is known as Villa Garcia, Zacatecas. The main house is now the municipal palace. Historically, it was in the diocese of San Matias, Pinos, Zac, so that's probably where you want to steer your search.
Good luck!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Thanks for your responses.
I knew that Villa Garcia didn't come about until 1860, and
was once a part of the Agostadero Hacienda. But there are
no Villa Garcia church records at all on Familysearch. Pablo Donate's son
Rosalio Onate is also unknown birthplace, however, Pablo Donate's
grandson, Luis Onate, was born in Villa Garcia 10/23/1885.
So, I was wondering the best place to search for Pablo and son
Rosalio. Well, San Matias, Pinos is worth investigating.
Thank you again,
Alice BB
Hi Alice,
I have ancestors that lived in Hacienda del Agostadera (today Villa Garcia) (1750-1850). I have found all of them in the church in Asientos, Aguascalientes. Definitely the records from el Agostadero was part of the jurisdiction of the church in Asientos, at least in the range that I have studied.
The ranches around El Agostadero were nevertheless included in San Matias, Pinos.
I hope this information helps
sus
Thank you so much, it gives me another avenue to explore.
Would you be willing to share your ancestors surnames from Agostadero.
Mine are Onate or Donate, Candelas, Monrreal, Becerra, Esquivel, Encalado, Carranza, Lopez, Ortis, Gonzales, and Vega going back to about 1750 to present.
Any and all info is greatly appreciated. Again, thank you for your response.
Alice BB
Hi Alice,
I can help you with your Becerra and your Candelas, I descend from both. Who are your earliest ancestors in both lines, who were they married to, and when did they live?
Un abrazo,
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Terrific Manny, I appreciate it.
Sorry, I misspoke about the Becerras, but failed to mention Valderrama date to abt 1750.
The earliest Candela I have found is Jose Dolores Candelas about 1780? married to Ma Felipa Encalado 05/23/1812 in Asientos. Son: Victor Candelas about 1820? married Maria Luisa Esquivel 04/03/1845, Asientos. Daughter: Maria Petra Candelas about 1857? married Rosalio Donate 02/20/1875, Villa Garcia, my grgrandfather. Onate was my mother's maiden name.
What can you tell me about Domingo Becerra abt 1800, his marriage and children?
All input is appreciated. Muchisimas gracias.
Alice BB
Hola Alice,
“Candelas” is tricky surname, as far as the families who live in the curates of Pinos, Asientos and Cienega de Mata,Ojuelos. The name originated with Joseph Candelas, who married Petrona Ortiz Bernal, on 7 Feb 1701, in Pinos. They were servants on Agostadero. I say “tricky,” because in many cases, the name was passed down matrilineally. Plus, some descendants of the Bernal family also used “Candelas.”
I’ve got most of these families mapped-out through the 1700’s, but my research ends around 1800. These families were of mixed race, being either “españoles” or “mestizos.” There were Indian families who also used the Candelas name, but I don’t track them, since they don’t descend from Joseph and Petrona (they were likely “criados” of the Candelas, and adopted their surname).
That said, I found your Dolores Candelas and Felipa Encalado in the 1820 and 1822 padrones:
Candelas in 1820 Agostadero (right image)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9BF-73KR-S?i=393&cat=…
Candelas 1822 Agostadero (right image)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9BF-434B-V?i=161&cat=…
Dolores was 43 in 1820 (ca 1777) and Felipa, 26 (ca 1794). Unfortunately, I’m not going to be much help to you, beyond this, because they were Indians. Indians can be more difficult to track, because surnames aren’t always listed on church records previous to 1800. Keep looking in Asientos, Pinos and Cienega de Mata. You might also want to check Ojocaliente in the 1800s. Several of these records aren’t indexed, so you might have to go through each individual roll of film.
I’m not sure which Domingo Becerra you’re looking for. There was one who married Ramona Chavez 1 Oct 1825, in Asientos. I don’t know who his children were (I seldom research the 1800s, unless they’re my direct ancestors), but he was son of Jose Antonio Becerra and his first wife, Maria Nestora Gonzalez; Jose Antonio was son of Hermenegildo Becerra cc Maria Matiana Micaela Bernal/es Duron; Hermenegildo was hijo natural of Anna Becerra de Aguilera and padre no conocido; I believe Anna Becerra was daughter of Margarita de Lira and her first husband, Gaspar de los Reyes Aguilera, but was raised by her second husband, Francisco Becerra, whose name she used (Francisco and Margarita are my g5’s). I don’t know Gaspar Aguilera’s ancestry.
I hope that helps!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Once again, thanks so much, Manny, it most certainly helps.
It verifies, clarifies, and is so interesting!
I was hoping I had finally found an indio, but can't be certain.
I'm willing and have gone image by image for my research, but I've been having such
problems with "freezing up" after a few images. Not sure what the problem is, it just
makes searching so much more time consuming and frustrating.
I'm looking for an entry that indicates indio and not mestizo, because I know through DNA that I'm 25%, just would love to find where, perhaps the paternal tree. I suppose it could go so far back on either side that I may never find the source. Until then I will keep on searching. It's too interesting to quit!
Alice BB
Hi Manny,
No kidding Candelas is a tricky surname! I found the informacion matrimonial 05/23/1812 Asientos, on Dolores Candelas and Felipa Encalado and they are both described as Espanoles!?!
Go figure. I was hoping to find them to be indios. I'll keep searching.
Many thanks again,
Alice BB
APUNTES PARA LA HISTORIA DE LA FAMILIA REYES
Los Ojeda Candelas en Trancoso y Agostadero
El censo del año de 1832 realizado en la hacienda de Agostadero contiene información de indiscutible importancia para estos Apuntes. Revela, primeramente, que la hacienda estaba administrada por don Antonio García Salinas y que vivían con él su esposa doña Loreto Elías y sus pequeños hijos Isabel y Jesús. Ellos están referidos a la casa grande, "la casa del señor Apoderado".
La primera pregunta que surge es porqué siendo tan rico como era don Antonio, estaba administrando Agostadero, hacienda que pertenecía a la familia Moncada y Berrio. En ese tiempo don Antonio era dueño de la gran hacienda de Trancoso, la de Rancho Grande en Jerez y la de Las Bocas, cerca de Salinas, . . . y sin embargo vivía en Agostadero.
¿Porqué vivía allí?
Hay un relato en la ´Historia de La Montesa´ de nuestro tío Guadalupe Díaz de León, que dice que don Francisco García Salinas "Tata Pachito" (hermano de don Antonio) el prominente político que había sido gobernador de Zacatecas y ministro de Economía y Fomento en el gabinete del presidente don Guadalupe Victoria, pasaba temporadas en Agostadero y que allí se casó en segundas nupcias con una de las muchachas Dávila. Otra crónica dice que habiendo estado en México, Tata Pachito se retiró a Agostadero un tiempo, deprimido por haber sido defenestrado de aquel importante Ministerio.
No obstante, el censo aporta un dato fundamental para nuestra historia familiar, y es la constatación de que teniendo 40 años de edad nuestra matriarca doña Felipa Encalado, la abuela de Mamá Libradita y bisabuela de Mamá Carlotita, formaba parte de la servidumbre de la casa grande de Agostadero, al servicio de los señores García Salinas-Elías.
Esta constatación podría explicar porqué Librada (y Carlota en su momento) fueron sirvientas en Trancoso, encargadas también de la casa grande, más o menos cuando se regresaron los Elías a aquella hacienda. Esto pudo haber ocurrido quizá cuando murió don Antonio, por lo que el joven don Jesús su hijo (y futuro papá de don Genaro) coheredó y se hizo cargo de aquella gran finca de campo. De manera que nuestra gente los Candelas Encalado y Candelas Palomino a lo largo de tres generaciones del Siglo XIX, en tanto que servidumbre, fue y vino de Agostadero a Trancoso y de Trancoso a Agostadero.
Pero detrás de la señera presencia de doña Felipa Encalado que debió haber nacido hacia 1790, se despliega otra historia de familia, una más profunda y conmovedora... verdaderamente fascinante.
APUNTES
El Censo de la hacienda de Agostadero realizado en 1820, menciona a varios de nuestros viejos parientes, los de la rama Ojeda Candelas. Los registros no dejan duda acerca del doble origen de esas familias: unas eran españolas, de pura cepa, y otras indígenas, que en algún momento del mestizaje adquirieron el apellido Candelas.
Nosotros descendemos de don José Dolores Candelas y doña Felipa de Encalado, quienes fueron censados como ´indios´. Ellos son los abuelos paternos de "mamá Libradita". Si bien las variantes genealógicas y raciales de la familia Candelas resultan interesantes, no lo es menos el caso de la familia Encalado. Los registros más antiguos de ese apellido son de inmigrantes ibéricos que llegaron a las minas de Sombrerete hacia 1600, apellidándose "De la Encalada". Quizá por la vinculación de esas poblaciones con la minería, aparecen luego otros núcleos genealógicos en los reales Pinos y de Asientos con el apellido " De Encalada" o " De Encalado", pero ya no solo son españoles, sino afrodescendientes e indígenas.
Bien establecido ese origen indígena de nuestra rama familiar, ya que descendemos de Gregorio Candelas Encalado que aparece censado con apenas cuatro años de edad, es importante mencionar que nuestra gente permaneció asentada por generaciones en grandes tramos del camino Real de tierra-adentro, formando parte de la servidumbre de ´el Condado´, que abarcaba las haciendas de Trancoso, El Carro, San Marcos, Ciénega Grande, El Lobo, Pilotos y Agostadero, cuyo antiguo dueño había sido don Felipe Cayetano de Medina Sarabia. Posteriormente, a principios el Siglo XIX cuando se hizo el Censo, ya pertenecía a don Juan Nepomuceno de Moncada y Berrio.
APUNTES
Los Ojeda Candelas en Trancoso y Agostadero
Librada Candelas Palomino ´Mamá Libradita´, nació en la Hacienda de Agostadero, hoy Villa García Zacatecas en el año de 1842 y murió en 1915. Fue pilmama y llavera (ama de llaves) en la servidumbre de la casa grande de la Hacienda de Trancoso con la familia García Salinas.
Fue persona de mucho carácter y determinación, muy apreciada por sus patrones. Decían que aún siendo una doméstica en la casa grande de Trancoso se le confirió poder y mando por su lealtad a toda prueba. Casó con Vicente Ojeda Morales en 1861. Cuando regresó a Agostadero (Villa García) hacia 1876 montó un obraje de cobijas y sarapes siguiendo la tradición de familia.
Era morena en extremo, era negra pero decían que tenía ojos aguamielados. Lo cierto es que su origen etnico la ubicaría en la antigua casta virreinal de ´los Lobos´, resultante del mestizaje de la sangre española e indígena con predominancia de la afrodescendiente, esto último sin duda, provenia de doña Felipa Encalado, su abuela materna.
Aparece en algunas fotografías hacia 1895, ya viuda, bien establecida y próspera con dos de sus hijas: Rosa y Elvira que habían nacido en Trancoso. En esas gráficas lleva al seno una "leopoldina" de plata, tal como la usaron las buenas rancheras zacatecanas del tiempo de Imperio y la Reforma. Al ver otras fotografías de la familia y de la misma época (como la de su hermana Elvira) se advierte que su uso era muy común. Decía mi papá que algunas veces esa prenda de orfebrería de plata zacatecana tenía engarces de gemas semipreciosas como chalchihuites, relicarios en los cuales se insertaban pequeñas fotografías, de las primeras que se comenzaron a producir en forma de daguerrotipos, o bien se insertaban abalorios como trozos de marfil o colmillos de jabalí calados en filigrana. Ese era, quizá, todo el exceso de adorno en plata labrada que se permitían llevar encima las mujeres de aquel tiempo, a diferencia de los caballeros que podían llevar decenas de piezas de plata labrada en sus botonaduras y toquillas del sombrero.
En las fotografías tomadas en su casa de Villa García, les sirve de telón uno de esos rústicos jorongos de lana para la gente de rancho que se tejían en su obraje. Eran de lana negra, canelona o frailesca, que era muy barata y considerada de segunda calidad puesto que solo la blanca tenía buen mercado y era muy cara porque se podía teñir.
Los originales de esas fotografías lo tiene la tía Socorro Galaviz Ojeda, en Lagos de Moreno
APUNTES
Los Ojeda Candelas en Trancoso y Agostadero
Se ha conservado una estupenda fotografía de la tía Elvira Candelas Palomino en Villa García, Zacatecas, hacia 1890. Aparece como una auténtica rancherona adinerada portando al seno una valiosa leopoldina. Vivió sus últimos años en Villa García y no sabían decirnos "si se casó o se quedó de cotorrita".
En la tradición oral se decía que en su obraje se tejían buenas cobijas y jorongos de lana oscura. El jorongo era una prenda personal, una cobija de más cortas dimensiones que se portaba "terciado al hombro" y formó parte imprescindible de la indumentaria típicamente masculina de la clase media rural. Según la tradición, la mejor prueba de la calidad de los tejidos de lana se probaba sosteniendo un jorongo nuevo por las esquinas entre dos personas y entonces la tía Elvira, como buena artesana y comerciante que era, le vaciaba un cántaro de agua, y no debía salir ni una gota por debajo de la cuneta. Eran piezas textiles bromosas pero ligeras, calientes e impermeables, muy apreciadas por los arrieros y la gente de los fríos reales de minas de la región.
Había otros relatos muy antiguos y muy interesantes que nos contaba mi abuelo Ezequiel. Eran "charras" o cuentecillos burlescos e inocentones muy antiguos que movían a risa y diversión, como la charra "de las tres presumidas", que se nos platicaba así:
Estas eran tres negritas muy rancheras que iban a ir al pueblo a una fiesta y el negrito su padre les había hecho un regalo a cada una de ellas. A una un anillo, a otra unos aretes y a la tercera unos zapatos. Al acudir al pueblo y ya en la casa a donde les habían invitado, las negritas se sentían menos y querían presumir sus regalos, sus prendas nuevas. Así que en medio de la gente invitada a la fiesta, una de las prietitas gritó:
- Mira una jaraña!, señalando el piso con el dedo del anillo.
Otra dijo:
- Yo no la jamato, meneando sus grandes aretes.
... y la tercera gritó:
- Yo la jamataré!, aplastando al bicho con sus zapatos nuevos.
Mi tío Fernando Ojeda Ibarra también nos platicaba acerca de la gente de Villa García de aquel tiempo, como el relato de una asombrosa ave "tan grande que al pasar volando tapaba la luna" y que la gente sencilla y temerosa de todo creía que era un ser sobrenatural pero que en realidad era un enorme zopilote viejo que bajaba graznando por las noches desde las peñas del cerro del Picacho, hasta a ese pueblo, solo para comerse los restos de pieles y pellejos crudos que se desechaban de las rústicas tenerías, las que allí curtían gamuzas.
El original de esa fotografía lo tiene la tía Socorro Galaviz Ojeda en Lagos de Moreno.
APUNTES PARA LA HISTORIA DE LA FAMILIA REYES
Los Ojeda en Trancoso 1860-1882
De acuerdo a las evidencias documentales, la estancia de nuestra familia en Trancoso debe haber durado unos 25 años. En ese tiempo ocurrieron hechos históricos de la mayor importancia, como la Guerra de Reforma y la intervención francesa. De ambos sucesos, nuestra gente conservó algunos recuerdos y una evidencia incontrovertible. Por ejemplo, mi abuelo Ezequiel nos platicaba que en su casa recordaban cuando llegaron a Trancoso los soldados Suavos. Esto fue así porque don Jesús García Elías formó parte de la facción conservadora más radical, enemiga de la Reforma, de manera que en esa hacienda se les proveía de caballos y alimentos mientras duró aquella incruenta guerra. Pero ese desliz histórico de los García lo pagarían muy caro, con el destierro, a la caída de Maximiliano y triunfo de la República.
No obstante la restauración de las instituciones republicanas, la marcada diferenciación social entre aristócratas hacendados y campesinado, la servidumbre, se volvió a imponer durante el porfiriato. Porfirio Díaz mantuvo una cercana amistado con los dueños de Trancoso ya que los llamó del destierro y respetó sus propiedades.
APUNTES PARA LA HISTORIA DE LA FAMILIA REYES
Los Ojeda en Trancoso 1860-1882
Toda la vida de Vicente Ojeda Morales estuvo relacionada con los equinos. Su juventud en la hacienda de La Ciénega de Jerez debió haber sido determinante en ese oficio ya que esa finca rural fue gran productora de mulas que se vendían para accionar las tahonas y los malacates en las minas. Estando en Trancoso, según la tradición oral que recibimos, fue peón de cuadra, cochero y mozo de estribos del hacendado. Cuando se independizó y se fue a vivir a Villa García se hizo carretero ya que compró troncos de mulas y con unas viejas guayinas comenzó a portear mercaderías entre esa región y Zacatecas. De allí provino una larga y vieja tradición que llegó a sus hijos y luego hasta mi abuelo Ezequiel.
José María y Vicente Ojeda Candelas fueron Albéitares o curanderos de mulas en las minas de Zacatecas y Mapimí. Mi tío bisabuelo Vicente "tío Chente" a quien conocimos ya muy viejecito hacia 1964, había sido caballerango del general revolucionario José Pérez Castro en la hacienda de Castro, cerca de Lagos de Moreno entre 1907 y 1914, poco antes de que fusilaran a ese militar en León Guanajuato.
Hay una interesante gráfica de los caballerangos de Trancoso amansando hacia 1890 un potro bruto. Había una vieja artimaña para "quitarle las cosquillas" a los equinos salvajes. Después de jinetearlos con pretal y espuelas para irlos amansando, procedían a ayatearlos con largos escobetones de popote, como se ve, para quitarles lo quisquilloso. Así evitaban las coces y las mordidas del cuaco matrero. Después de esa etapa comenzaba su educación con la monta con silla, acompañando de madrina y usando en principio la falsa rienda.
APUNTES PARA LA HISTORIA DE LA FAMILIA REYES
Los Ojeda Candelas en Trancoso y Agostadero
Durante la restauración de la República, el gobierno de Zacatecas desterró a las familias García Salinas y García Rojas, entre otras emparentadas entre sí por haber apoyado al segundo imperio. Dejando sus haciendas y casonas a cargo de representantes legales como el Licenciado De la Campa y la servidumbre de sus confianzas, se fueron a vivir a León. Es probable que en alguna ocasión Librada y Vicente hayan ido a esa incipiente ciudad industrial del Bajío. No hay noticia de que hayan vivido allá.
Hacia 1876, cuando comenzaron a volver esos hacendados a tomar posesión nuevamente y vivir en sus propiedades las cosas comenzarían a cambiar. Para algunos, como los de Trancoso, ese destierro duró unos siete años, de manera que el Licenciado don José María de la Campa y Cos debió entregar los innumerables bienes al regreso de los dueños. Lo mismo ocurriría con los encargados de la casa y otros bienes menores, como Mamá Libradita y don Vicente Ojeda.
Tenemos la idea de que la lealtad de esos sirvientes menores como los Ojeda Candelas fue recompensada con alguna remuneración pecuniaria o vendiéndoles casa y terrenos en Villa García, que fue donde se asentaron de regreso y pusieron su mesón de arrieros y su taller de tejidos de lana.
Pero en la tradición se nos decía que la joven Carlota se había tenido que quedar en Trancoso al servicio de doña Loreto García o una de sus hermanas que no había contraído matrimonio: que se la quedaron, la retuvieron.
Teniendo tiernos 14 años, Carlota fue educada y adiestrada para continuar como domestica muy cercana a las dueñas de aquel latifundio. Allí aprendió a leer y escribir con admirable corrección y le enseñaron a hacer cuentas. Aprendió modales (y a andar a caballo en albardón para acompañar a las damas aquellas, nos decían) y sobre todo prodigar un trato señorial, sumiso y educadísimo. En ese tiempo la hacienda de Agostadero se convirtió en Municipio y la cabecera cambió de nombre a Villa García en honor al gobernante ejemplar que fue don Francisco García Salinas ´Tata Pachito´.
Carlota Ojeda Candelas vivió en Trancoso unos seis años teniendo a sus padres y hermanos en Villa García. Se comprende que se veían con cierta frecuencia porque don Vicente iba a Zacatecas en su oficio de carretero y porteador, y en ese tránsito está Trancoso. Se nos decía que las damas hacendadas precisaban mucho de Carlota y decían tenerle aprecio, pero ni siquiera le daban permiso de ir de vacaciones a Villa García. Sin embargo, en una de esas se quedó en casa con sus padres, por lo que las mandonas de las Garcías mandaron varias veces a por ella, con exigencia y disgusto. Pero Carlota ya no quiso regresar a Trancoso porque pronto formó noviazgo en Villa García, de manera que ya para Agosto de 1882 tramitaba en el real de Asientos su matrimonio con Aureliano Reyes Diaz de León, uno de los muchachos dueños de San Francisco de los Reyes, que era un rancho distante apenas dos leguas de Villa García rumbo a San Nicolás de Quijas, sobre el camino del Obraje.
PUNTES PARA LA HISTORIA DE LA FAMILIA REYES
Los Ojeda en Trancoso 1860-1882
(Tradición oral)
Don Vicente nació en La Ciénega, cerca de Jerez el 28 de Enero de 1823. Murió en Trancoso hacia 1897. Muy joven fue chinaco y "mozo de estribos" de don Genaro García García Rojas dueño de una parte de la hacienda de Trancoso y toda la de San Marcos, cargo de suma confianza que nuestra gente consideró como una verdadera distinción. Nos decían que ese "destino" ya no era de cuidar los caballos, que para eso estaban los mozos de cuadra, sino que era de su obligación ensillar el bridón que iba a montar ese día el amo, o el que traía de su gusto por un tiempo. Había que limpiar la montura con linaza, verificar las condiciones del cincho, el freno, la cabezada y la jáquima. Se debía tener descolgada y desempolvada la calzonera, el sombrero y el cotón que conformaban la rica indumentaria del señorón aquel; había que bruñirle sus espuelas y demás fornituras del recaudo.
Se usaba una especie de ritual en el que había que "calzar de caballero" al amo, poniéndole las espuelas y abotonarle la calzonera o las chivarras; usanza en la cual, el mozo debía permanecer hincado de una rodilla y destocado.
El buen mozo de estribos debía sostener el freno y la cabezada del caballo mientras el amo se enhorquetaba parado desde un banco: allí y solo allí era, justamente, el palafrenero. Andando en el monte, como no había banco que usar y el amo se apeaba a mear o cagar, y después de haber satisfecho esa necesidad, el mozo le daba su propia rodilla al pie del señor para que alcanzara el estribo del lado de montar y subiera al caballo. Ya sentado, y siempre por los costados, el mozo se destocaba para acomodarle las indumentarias y le "pachoneba" el caballo para tranquilizarlo. El mozo de estribos iba siempre al lado del criador (a la izquierda de la cabalgadura principal), por si él deseaba echar un lazo, usar la carabina para lo cual debía cargar y recargar las armas de retaque. También el señor podía usar "el cíntaro toledano", para disciplinar a los insolentados. El criado no dejaba que se le arrimaran los perros bravos o la gente de a pie. Lo proveía de agua, licor, bocadillos o ropa; le prendía el cigarro con golpe de islabón o le daba candela si prefería fumar en cachimba y se adelantaba en el camino para mirar provisoriamente los acontecimientos de la llegada del dueño y ejecutaba cualquier instrucción que se le daba.
Contaban que en una ocasión que salieron a montear y revisar sus propiedades, siembras, ordeñas y engordas, vieron un jinete misterioso que ante su proximidad pegó la carrera al monte desde una tupida nopalera. Siendo su propiedad e intrigado por aquella insolencia de que no haya saludado ni hecho pleitesía al amo, le ordenó a Vicente Ojeda..
...... atájalo, ¡que no se te juiga!
Y el mozo espoleó su cuaco y salió catapultado tras de aquel desconocido. Contaban que Vicente hizo lo que ningún caballero debía hacer, salvo en cumplimiento de una orden como aquella, pues habiéndole apercibido que se detuviera y ser desobedecido, se aproximó al caballo del fugitivo y se lo coleó, derribando caballo y jinete. Rodaron resquebrajándose las costillas contra el fuste y al punto ya estaba el amo allí, inquiriendo al peláo aquel, que quedó tirado, descalabrado por la tremenda malacachoncha y tenía toda la boca reventada, llena de tierra y sangre.
¿Qué haces aquí? ¿Quién eres?, le inquirió el terrateniente
-Disculpe l´amo, pero me metí a la majada a comer unas tunas, voy de paso a Zacatecas.....
Don Vicente no estaba a gusto en Trancoso y se independizó a luego. Se hizo carretero, porteador de mercancías entre Pinos y Zacatecas. Llegó a tener varias “guayinas” trabajando con sus troncos de tiro (cada "tronco de tiro", como decían ellos, estaba compuesto por seis bestias mulares). Hizo un capital nada despreciable. Tuvo varias casas y un mesón para arrieros en Villa García.
Decía Don Ezequiel Reyes Ojeda, que a su abuelo, siendo porteador reconocido, el Ayuntamiento de Zacatecas le encomendó la compra y el traslado del yeso que se utilizó en los estucados del Teatro Calderón. Lo extrajo de los yacimientos que hay en las cercanías de la Sierra del Astillero. Se contaba que un año antes de morir, se le incendiaron, con el fuego de la noche, dos guayines cargados con mercancías valiosas en un paraje cercano a la hacienda de San Pedro Piedra Gorda. Él contaba “Las charras del Tío Rositas”, cuentecillos de un arriero zacatecano, fantasioso y picaresco.
APUNTES PARA LA HISTORIA DE LA FAMILIA REYES: LOS MULEROS
Hacia 1885, los tíos Vicente y José María Ojeda Candelas se fueron de Villa García a probar suerte en compañías mineras de Zacatecas. Por allá encontraron un buen destino, como se les llamaba entonces a los empleos. Su trabajo era el de curar los bestias de tiro que movían los molinos de mineral así como los que accionaban los malacates. Las exigencias de energía animal en la industria minera era despiadada, pues las tahonas de mineral se conocían como "molinos de sangre", de tal manera que a los cuantos días de pegar un animal fuerte y lozano a los arneses, se pasmaban o simplemente desfallecían de puro agotamiento. En tales condiciones, se les denominaba mulas "lacradas" o "quebrantadas".
Ellos conocían el antiguo arte de la Albeitía, indudablemente por enseñanzas de su padre don Vicente que fue carretero y porteador. Aliviaban esas nobles bestias de tiro y carga en corrales y macheros especiales con diversos “remedios” que eran mejunjes y unturas preparadas con ciencia propia. Después de permanecer en Zacatecas y Fresnillo, migraron a Mapimí hacia 1909. Por allá se quedó el tío José María y el tío Chente ingresó a las filas de la Revolución al lado del General Pérez Castro. A él lo conocimos ya muy ancianito, hacia 1963 y nos contaba historias.
Hi Alicia,
Depending on which Agostadero. I know there is one in the jurisdiction of Jalpa and the "main" one in the region is between Aguascalientes and Asientos, if I remember correctly. I hope this sheds some light!
Best Regards,
Daniel Méndez de Torres y Camino
Don José Bruno Macías Valadéz Muñoz (1851–1915) descrito en censos como agricultor, nació el 6 de octubre de 1851 en Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, México, hijo de Secundino y Rita.
En levantamientos rurales catastrales de 1906 tenemos evidencia que Marcelino Macias Valadez (padre) era aun propietario de las fincas Mesa Jocoyde en Calvillo y La Barranca en Jesus Maria.
Y, en El Diario Oficial aun lista terrenos a su nombre en febrero 15, 1970, donde se discute la expropiacion de terrenos, se menciona la inafectabilidad del el predio La Esperanza, propiedad de Marcelino Macias Valadez (hijo).
Desgraciadamente no hay acceso al documento completo, por lo que no se puede determinar el resultado de esta accion gubernamental.
Hit a wall with Manuel Felix y Suriano first married to Antonia Ortis then Carmen Carlos de Godi. From my research he went by Manuel Felix and sometimes by Manuel Suriano.
1)-Ysidoro Escobedo and Maria de La Concepcion
2)-Lazaro Antonio Escobedo and Juana Maria Garai (not married, Lazaro was married to another woman)
3)-Luisa Escobedo and Nicolas Bernardino Soriano ( son of Felix Soriano and Maria Luisa)
4)-Jose Manual Soriano/Suriano (aka Manuel Felix) married twice, 1st to Antonia Ortiz and 2nd to Maria del Carmen Carlos de Godi.
Happy Mother’s Day
Rick A. Ricci
baptism 25 Sept 1808 in Jerez, Zac
Maria Jesus Agapita Espanola born in Santa Fe 5 days old 11am
parents: Jose Manuel Suriano and Maria del Carmen Godoi
pat grn: Nicolas Suriano and Luisa Garay
mat grn: Juan Carlos Godoy and Magdalena de la Torre
godparents: Juan Jose Lespron and Ynes Medrano
source: 0439849 film
page 189 Family search online
.
marriage 8 Jan 1742 in Jerez, Zac
Nicolas Bernardino Soriano Espanol from Juanacatique
parents: Felix Soriano and Maria Luisa
with: Luisa Escobedo Espanola from Juanacatique
natural child of Antonio Lazaro Escobedo and Juana Maria Garai
godparents: Caitano de Santiago and Maria Dolores
witness: Joseph Castro and Marcos Reyes
source: 0440059 Jerez marriage record
page 498 Family search online
Record of Luisa Garai
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-GH9P-16?from=lynx1UIV8…
Marriage record
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-GB44-F?from=lynx1UIV8&…
Rick A. Ricci
Hola prim@s,
The San Luis Potosí miscellaneous archives continue to be a great source of information, and not just for known Potosina families!
Manny,
I will give my two cents on the name of Domingo González Maral's mother, and a tentative transcription of the first part of the will.
I think I agree with "de Mona." If you look at the "m" in mona and the "m" in Domingo three lines up, I think they look exactly the same. As to the "o," the writer did not close the o, making it look like a u but neither did he close the o in "Yo," when Domingo said "Sepan quantos ... como yo."
As to the place where the parents were from I think it says: "difuntos vezinos que fueron de la villa de Cubas en los Reynos de Castilla en Portugal." This wording makes sense since Castilla and Portugal were united from 1582-1640, which is when this will was written (1595).
So, the complete first section (with a small portion I could not make out) says:
"En el nombre de nuestro señor Jhesu Xpto y de la siempre virgen maria su madre, sepan quantos esta carta vieren como Yo domingo gonzalez maral ... de san luis minas del potosi de ls nueva España, hijo legitimo de diego gonzalez maral y de doña Ysabel de mona difuntos vezinos que fueron de la villa de Cubas en los Reynos de Castilla en Portugal estando como Estoy enfermo..."
Hope this helps!
Sergio
Thank you, Sergio. Those are the challenges of paleography: not only deciphering chicken scratch, but also trying to “hear” how a 16th century Spanish scribe heard a foreign word. And then, there are the place names that are no longer in use, which is always a possibility.
I finally located the testimony of Domingo Gonzalez from the Alonso Alvarez proceso, which identifies him as the yerno of Martin Monje. It’s dated 24 Apr 1562 in Ameca, Jalisco. Unfortunately, there is no signature to match with the signature on the testamento of Domingo Gonzalez Maral, so we’re still relying upon deductive reasoning, as far as Ines de Leon’s parentage.
I also noticed that in the left image, in the last paragraph of his testimony, witness Luis Montesinos mentions an “Alonso Gutierrez, sobrino de Myn Monge.” That Martin Monje had a nephew living in the area is news to me. Perhaps he’s the son of Juan Gutierrez de Leon cc Catalina Sanchez? FYI, you’ll find other early residents of Ameca and Purificacion appearing as witnesses in that section of the proceso - Juan Fernandez de Hijar and Alvaro Bracamonte, to name a couple.
Saludos,
Manny Díez Hermosillo
How many Alex's are on NR? Geez I hope it not just me...otherwise the pressure is on!
Both requests are tough! Here are some possibilities that I see:
Surname, which may even have cut off letters:
Mona
Niona
City, which again may have cut off letters:
Cubel
Cubiel
Cubes
Cubies
Cubill
That would be the letters transcribed. Then of course the b could be a v, the s could be a z, the c could be a q, in modern spanish etc.
Do you think how "Villa" is spelled looks strange? Like 99% of the time "Villa" is found at that position in the sentance but if you look at "illa" in Castilla in the next line, it looks different than in Villa. Maybe it doesnt say villa and the city is "X de X"?
Tough one!
Alex
Thanks Alex. I also see “de Mona” for the mother’s surname, though “Niona” is an interesting variant. And “villa” does look a little different - looks like he added a third “l.”
As far as the identity of his wife, Inés de León, and trying to link her to Martín Monje cc Isabel Álvarez Corona, I consulted with Sylvia Corona, and she replied, “sobre Domingo González esto es lo que tengo: Nació hacia 1527. En 1556 tal vez en la villa de Colima, ante el escribano Juan de la Torre, Martín Monje, su suegro, vecino de Colima, le otorgó poder a Domingo González, residente en las minas de Guaxacatlán, en lo concerniente a las minas que tenía en el real, para registrar ante cualesquiera justicias, nuevas minas y, también, para poblar y labrar y meter en ellas gente y esclavos que para el dicho efecto Domingo había recibido de Monje. Siendo yerno de éste, prestó declaración en 1557, en Guadalajara, durante el proceso inquisitorial contra Alonso Álvarez de Espinosa. Fuentes: (Romero de Solís, 1999b: N° 46; y Villaseñor Bordes, 1959: 40).”
I looked at Villaseñor Bordes’ “La Inquisición en la Nueva Galicia,” and in the list of witnesses for the proceso against Alonso Álvarez de Espinosa, he names “Domingo González yerno de Martín Monge, de edad de 30 años poco más o menos.”
I read through that proceso - there are actually two folders, 1557 and 1569 - and though I see Domingo González’s name among those of witnesses present during a proclamation, I can’t find the testimony where he talks about Martín Monje giving him poderes, so either I missed it, or there’s a third folder.
Either way, at least we know it’s documented that Martín Monje had a son-in-law named Domingo González, and seeing how Domingo González Maral was married to Inés de León, and their daughters used the surname “Corona,” it’s makes sense that they are the same Domingo González, and that Inés de León would be Martín Monje’s unnamed daughter. She would’ve named for his mother, Inés de Alonso Monje.
Thanks!
Manny Díez Hermosillo
Could it be that the village in Portugal is written as Cubæ and may represent Cuba, Portugal?
Thank you, Glenn. I was thinking Cuba, too, but at first glance, I see “Cuvill” or “Cuvile,” so I’m leaning towards Covilhã, which a Spanish scribe might have written “Cuvilla.” Another possibility is Cubalhão (“Cuvallo” or “Cuvaio”). It’s too bad the scribe didn’t write down the town’s bishopric, which was common in those days. What do you see for his mother’s surname?
Thanks again!
Manny Díez Hermosillo
En España, se celebra el día de la madre el 1 de mayo.
Muchas gracias por compartir. La revise y se ve muy interesante. ¡Buenas fotos!
Un cordial saludo,
Austin Pérez
I'm working with a cousin on his genealogy
One of his ancestors is listed as either first name Quillno or more likely Quilino
Almost positive it was short for Tranquilino
Thanks for everyone's comments
I too have seen Quilino as a fist name. Could also be Quirino.
I have seen “Quilino” as an abbreviation of “Aquilino” and “Tranquilino”.
En un par de ocasiones, hemos perdido un miembro de la familia y su viuda desaparecio del mapa; en ocasiones solo con un nombre, en otras solo una ciudad ("Era una americana de Los Angeles.")
Los fundadores de la linea son Macedonia Arellano Alcalá de Gómez (1859–1922) de Santo Cristo Milagroso, Tanhuato de Guerrero, Michoacán y Cenobio Gómez Peña (1860?-1915?) tambien del estado de Michoa
Hello everybody!
Mi tatarabuela Maria Petronila Games Navarro (1836–1902), primer esposa de Don José Bruno Macías Valadéz Muñoz (1851–1915), nació el 30 de mayo de 1836 en Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, México, hija de Antonia y Herculano.
De joven fue novicia, o monja, (posiblemente en el Convento de San Ignacio de las R. R. Monjas de la Enseñanza de Aguascalientes; las fuentes pertinentes son de difícil acceso y esto es conocido solo por tradicion oral.)
Con la Ley de Nacionalización de Bienes Eclesiásticos (12 de Julio de 1859) y la Ley de Exclaustración de Monjas y Frailes (11 agosto de 1859), y la subsecuente supresión de monasterios y la exclaustración de monjas durante la revolución liberal de Benito Juarez (1858-1861) se vio en necesidad de abandonar su convento y dedicarse entonces a la vida laica en febrero de 1863 cuando las monjas enfrentaron la primera exclaustración practicada en el país.
Petra tenia entonces 27 años de edad.
Muchas de estas ex-monjas hicieron labor de maestras o enfermeras.
Dice la tradicion familiar que ella fue quien le enseñó a leer a su esposo Bruno con quien, restaurando hasta donde era posible la vida común, se caso en 1870; ella ya de 34 y el de 18 años de edad.
Tuvieron dos hijos:
Marcelino Macías Valadéz Games (1871–???) nacido el 2 de junio en Aguascalientes, casado con Maria Eufemia Medina Perez, Maria Refugio Oviedo Oviedo y finalmente con Maria Franca de la Soledad Ruiz de Chavez Aguilar, y muere en Aguascalientes.
Jose Jesus Macías Valadéz Games (1873–1873) nacida el 1o. de enero en Aguascalientes y muere de fiebre a los cuatro meses en el Rancho de Los Negritos.
Thank you so much! Yes, he was born in Nochistlán, Zacatecas, and I understand this Parroquia is still part of Diócesis de Guadalajara... He was born in 1877, but I cannot find any burial record, nor death record, nor marriage record... I think it would've been possible for him to be a priest, but I didn't know where to look.
I am definitely going to check these documents, thank you both so very much!
The diocesan archives are your best bet, I think, for finding information on ancestors who were clergy.
Maybe you will get lucky and find them in this booklet of lists of clergyman in the diocese of Valladolid, Nueva España (Morelia). Based on the appearance of a clergyman I have identified on the list, it is from the mid to late 1700's.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-BPS2-S3
The lists contained in the booklet:
You can look for their “ordenes.” If he lived in Nueva Galicia, those can be found in the archives for the Diócesis de Guadalajara. These are the un-indexed records:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/index?owc=3JW2-3TG%3A17193500…
Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Hi Everyone, My name is Elma Esparza Ramos and I am currently researching the Ruiz de Esparza surname. I am at a brick wall with Manuel Antonio Esparza who was maybe born sometimes around 1800-1810.
I've got a couple:
María de Jesús Pérez Esparza
1825 – Deceased
Juliana Esparza
1810 – Deceased
It's not much to go on.
I've got LOTS of multiples of Jesus Perez, and I've also hit a wall after these two.
Hello Elma, I'm new to this but had to respond to your inquiries . I'm related to Manuel Antonio Esparza through marriage of Marcelina Cruz. They had four children listed on my tree . Besides Dionisio ( 1830), they had Santa Maria Esparza born about 1836. One of their children, Herlinda Tenorio Esparza (1/10/1861) born in Rio Grande, Zacatecas married Martin Joaquin Reyes (3/31/1872) in Ojocalientes, Zac. Married on 3/1/1898 in San Juan de Guadalupe, Durango Mexico. Martin's parents were Jesus Reyes (1839) married to Rosario Amador on May 20, 1866 in Ojocalientes, Zac. My maternal lineage comes from Rosario's father, Francisco Amador married to Michaela Lopez. Also note that Manuel Antonio had a grandson by the name of Dionisio Esparza born on 04/08/1859 and died 08/22/1898 in San Juan de Guadalupe, Durango Mexico. That is as far as I had gone for now. I will do more research on this. Cecilia
Let me add that Santa Maria married Amada Tenorio (8/21/1839), her parents were Francisco Tenorio de Alva Sanchez and Ygnacia Castrellon Montelongo.
So glad to hear from someone that has my family in their tree too. I have the information that you mentioned. I dont think I had found any information on Herlinda Esparza Tenorio and its good to hear that. I will take a look at that info. Right now, I am doing extensive search in Rio Grande, Zacatecas, since this is where most of the records that I found says, they came from. So far, the Esparza's that would be close to Manuel Antonio's age all come to a halt. At least they probably were not from this area. Some of Santa Maria's children mentioned them being born in Sain Alto, so that is where I am going next. My brother's ydna matched to a Jose Luis Ruiz de Esparza and his father Rafael are from Gomez Palacio, Durango, maybe that is where we need to go. He told me that most of the esparza's do go back to this line. Thank you for your thoughts. Most of the info on family search is from me and my sister. There is another user that I think is also trying to find her Esparza family and is digging thru all the Esparza's found. I think her family goes to Olayo Esparza and Antonia Aguilar. Thank you Ms. Cecilia.
por que todo lo escribes en ingles si estamos buscando datos de nuestros antepasados en mexico y tu debes hablar español que no? saludos.
Holo Leohomo, escribo en ingles porque es mas facil para mi y ellos me contestaron en ingles. Mi primer lenguaje fue espanol, pero creci y naci en Laredo, Texas. No sabes leer el Ingles? O sera mas facil para ti el Espanol. De cual quier modo, saludos tambien.
Hello Elma,
I saw your thread and thought I'd let you know that there is a Ruiz de Esparza surname in New Mexico circa early 1800, maybe late 1700s. Since the surname is not that common, maybe, there is a connection. The progenitor of the line in New Mexico appears to be a Teodoro Ruiz de Esparza and spouse, Josefa Angulo in, I believe, Santa Fe, NM. I have a distant cousin researching the surname and his brick wall is Teodoro Ruiz de Esparza. He can't go back any further.
Feel free to contact me and I'll put you in touch with mi primo.
SC Sexton
Hello Stephanie,
José Teodoro Ruiz De Esparza and Maria Josefa Ángulo did have children in New Mexico. But Jose Teodoro Ruiz De Esparza was originally from Aguascalientes. Maria Josefa was originally from Toluca. The records states that there was a dispensation so there is hope that the dispensation will be found and shed more information on this couple. Jose Teodoro and María Josefa were married in Durango.
Here is their marriage record:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6SN2-JL?i=327&cc=15545…
Here is the baptismal record of their son Manuel Ruiz De Esparza
Jose Manuel Matheo Ruis De Esparza
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 22 Jun 1817
Christening Place: PURISIMA CONCEPCION-CATHOLIC, TOME, VALENCIA, NEW MEXICO
Father's Name: Teodoro Ruis De Esparza
Mother's Name: Josefa Angulo
Dear Elma,
You have not provided information on Dionicio Ruiz De Esparza that will help connect him to his ancestors. Please provide more information. There is a Dionicio Ruiz De Esparza in Texas that was born circa 1880 to Ramon Ruiz De Esparza and Petra Lerma. Is this the same Dionicio Ruiz De Esparza that you are writing about?
Here is a census record with Dionicio Ruiz De Estrada son of Ramon and Petra:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GYB8-9865?i=5&cc=14176…
Here are some other records with similar names but in Oaxaca at a later date than what you mentioned:
Manuel Antonio Ruiz
Spouse's Name: Ma. Marcilina Cruz
Event Date: 26 May 1847
Event Place: San Matias Jalatlaco,Jalatlaco-Oaxaca,Oaxaca,Mexico
Rick A. Ricci
Dionicio Esparza is not the son of Ramon Ruiz de esparza and Petra Lerma. His father is Manuel Antonio Esparza and Maria Marcelina Cruz, there is a record for one of Dionicio's son, that was born in Sabinas Hidalgo and it mentions the grandparents as being Manuel Esparza and Marcelina Cruz. That is all that I have for him. Have not found a birth or baptism for him, no death record in Laredo, Texas, since he arrive somewhere in the 1880's. I thank you for taking the time to answer my posts and I appreciate that.
Thank You
Elma Esparza Ramos
The line is getting closer to the Ruiz De Esparza in Nueva Galicia as we have now traced Manuel Antonio Esparza to Zacatecas.
María Marcelina Cruz is the daughter of Lazaro De la Cruz and Petra Contreras
Check out this family tree where you will find more sources to look for more clues.
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/LVHQ-6P5
Hi R.A. Ricci
That link you just gave me is my tree. I already have that information. I will keep looking though and thank you for searching.
Please let me know if you connect Manuel Esparza to the Ruiz De Esparza family in Aguascalientes.
Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci
Hi there, I have not seen or found any families in New Mexico, but there is always a first time. I think we did have a ydna from someone in New Mexico. I would like to hear from your cousin, anytime. Thank your post reading my thread and responding. I appreciate it.
Elma Esparza Ramos
I was just curious myself as I do have Ruiz de Velasco and Esparsa in my
family tree.
I did find Teodoro Ruiz de Esparza and Maria Josefa Angulo's marriage.
Teodoro originated in Aguascalientes, Mexico and Josefa originated in
Toluca, Mexico. They were married 9 September 1811, in El Sagrario
Metropolitano, Victoria de Durango, Durango, Mexico, Information found in
Mexio marriages (1570-1950) Catholic Church Records, 1604-1985, Durango,
Marriages 1796-1820, Image 328, Pg. 185, film 654842.
Esther Jordan Lopez
esther@enhanced.org
On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:35 PM wrote:
> Hi there, I have not seen or found any families in New Mexico, but there is
> always a first time. I think we did have a ydna from someone in New
> Mexico. I
> would like to hear from your cousin, anytime. Thank your post reading my
> thread and responding. I appreciate it. Elma Esparza Ramos
>
Is anyone else researching these surnames around Zacatecas and Aguascalientes: CAMINO, LOPEZ, LIZALDE, GARCIA, VASQUEZ, VELASCO, FRAUSTO, FLORES, SOTO, SOLIS, ESPARZA, DIAZ, OROPEZA, MARTINEZ, DURAN.
I have the following in my data base
Jose Vital Magallanas
born 10 July 1780 - Tepechitlan, Zac
Married 15 July 1816 - Tlaltenango, Zac
film 443971 batch M607143
spouse: Guadalupe Lopez de Oropresa
her parents: Captain Antonio Lopez de Oropesa
Andrea San Roman
Jose Vital Magallanas and Guadalupe Lopez de Oropesa - I found 8 children...all born in Tlaltenango
I had a copy of their marriage record that listed Captain Antonio Lopez de Oropesa from some order. About a year ago, I sent all the documents to a Magallanas cousin in Tlaltenango, as Vital is on his line.
Hope this information helps.
Helyn
mormonboy74 wrote:
Is anyone else researching these surnames around Zacatecas and Aguascalientes: CAMINO, LOPEZ, LIZALDE, GARCIA, VASQUEZ, VELASCO, FRAUSTO, FLORES, SOTO, SOLIS, ESPARZA, DIAZ, OROPEZA, MARTINEZ, DURAN.
Hi
I am researching Martinez in Aguascalientes, especially Esteban and Panfila. I think I have another name or two, I will post it here.
John
Santos Luna wrote:
Re: Lopez de Oropesa
I have the following in my data base
Jose Vital Magallanas
born 10 July 1780 - Tepechitlan, Zac
Married 15 July 1816 - Tlaltenango, Zac
film 443971 batch M607143
spouse: Guadalupe Lopez de Oropresa
her parents: Captain Antonio Lopez de Oropesa
Andrea San Roman
Jose Vital Magallanas and Guadalupe Lopez de Oropesa - I found 8 children...all born in Tlaltenango
I had a copy of their marriage record that listed Captain Antonio Lopez de Oropesa from some order. About a year ago, I sent all the documents to a Magallanas cousin in Tlaltenango, as Vital is on his line.
Hope this information helps.
Helyn
mormonboy74 wrote:
Is anyone else researching these surnames around Zacatecas and Aguascalientes: CAMINO, LOPEZ, LIZALDE, GARCIA, VASQUEZ, VELASCO, FRAUSTO, FLORES, SOTO, SOLIS, ESPARZA, DIAZ, OROPEZA, MARTINEZ, DURAN.
I am also searching for Garcia and Esparza and Duran from Jalisco and Aguascalientes, also Flores and Soto from Zacatecas. Type in my name in the group's search field or go to "files" or "gedcom".
Emilie Garcia
Port Orchard, WA ---
----- Original Message -----
From: mormonboy74
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 8:59 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Surnames-from ZACATECAS, AGUASCALIENTES
Is anyone else researching these surnames around Zacatecas and Aguascalientes: CAMINO, LOPEZ, LIZALDE, GARCIA, VASQUEZ, VELASCO, FRAUSTO, FLORES, SOTO, SOLIS, ESPARZA, DIAZ, OROPEZA, MARTINEZ, DURAN.
Hello, I am researching the surname Lopez -specifically from Rancho Lo de Carrera, Tenayuca, Zacatecas.
Lisa G
I am researching the surname Diaz from Momax, Zacatecas.
Tony Diaz
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from U.S. Cellular
-----Original Message-----
From: mormonboy74
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 08:59:28
To:research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Surnames-from ZACATECAS, AGUASCALIENTES
Is anyone else researching these surnames around Zacatecas and Aguascalientes: CAMINO, LOPEZ, LIZALDE, GARCIA, VASQUEZ, VELASCO, FRAUSTO, FLORES, SOTO, SOLIS, ESPARZA, DIAZ, OROPEZA, MARTINEZ, DURAN.
Hi Tony. I am researching several last names in Aguascalientes, including
Lopez, Elizalde, Esparza, Martínez, Sotomayor and many others, mostly in
17th & 18th century church records. No information on Camino, Solis,
Oropesa, Frausto and Duran.
Bill Figueroa
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Diaz"
To:
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Surnames-from ZACATECAS, AGUASCALIENTES
>I am researching the surname Diaz from Momax, Zacatecas.
>
> Tony Diaz
> Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from U.S. Cellular
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mormonboy74
> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 08:59:28
> To:research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Surnames-from ZACATECAS, AGUASCALIENTES
>
>
> Is anyone else researching these surnames around Zacatecas and
> Aguascalientes: CAMINO, LOPEZ, LIZALDE, GARCIA, VASQUEZ, VELASCO, FRAUSTO,
> FLORES, SOTO, SOLIS, ESPARZA, DIAZ, OROPEZA, MARTINEZ, DURAN.
you need to get specific. The questions are too general in nature. Ask
the questions again but give us the specific areas in Jalisco,
Zacatecas, and/or Aguascalientes that your family comes from. Or if you
think that maybe they came from the surrounding areas then include those
areas in your question.
You can go to the files area of the group and into the members
genealogies. Look next to the indivuduals names for a location that
interests you and then open that folder. It should give a list of
surnames they are researching in those areas. Hopefully you'll find
someone and can contact them. Even if they aren't researching your
specific surnames contact them anyway as the chances are they have seen
your surnames or some of those surnames have married into their families.
Narrowing down your question will help.
thanks,
joseph
===================
Joseph Puentes
http://H2Opodcast.com (Environment Podcast)
http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com (Latin American History)
mormonboy74 wrote:
> Is anyone else researching these surnames around Zacatecas and Aguascalientes: CAMINO, LOPEZ, LIZALDE, GARCIA, VASQUEZ, VELASCO, FRAUSTO, FLORES, SOTO, SOLIS, ESPARZA, DIAZ, OROPEZA, MARTINEZ, DURAN.
I've got a couple:
María de Jesús Pérez Esparza
1825 – Deceased
Juliana Esparza
1810 – Deceased
It's not much to go on.
I've got LOTS of multiples of Jesus Perez, and I've found it impossible to move beyond these two.
I posted three ancestral lines of the "Padilla" family of "Los Altos de Jalisco."
One line shows the paternal line starting with Mateos Davila.
I am also working on the Padilla family from Los Altos de Jalisco, with a focus on Don José Guadalupe Padilla de la Torre (1861–1929) and Pedro Alfonso Padilla Gilbert (1914–1983) both born in rancho Tres Palos, (in Arandas according to some, and San Ignacio, Cerro Gordo according to others) whose sister Rita Padilla De La Torre married into the Medina Ascencio family.
Hello German,
I have many Padilla lines in my family. I descend from Macedonio De La Torre Padilla and my great grandmother had a first marriage to a Padilla so my dad has many first cousins that are Padilla Franco. On my moms side I also descend from Padilla from both maternal grandparents. My maternal grandfather was born in San Ignacio, Cerro Gordo.
Saludos,
Rick A. Ricci
The lopez part of the surname could have come from being named after an uncle, or it could have come from the "Lope" ancestors from his Martinez de Leiva side of the family. I wont know if Baron's tree is accurate until I can check his sources.
There was a Lope de Padilla member of the family that died in his late 20's or early 30's. I have a suspicion that he belongs in the line and that he was skipped over in the family line with his son being raised by hjs grandfather. That would explain a discrepancy that I found in a document. I need to do more research to clear this up.
Rick A. Ricci
Hi Olga,
I would love to have a finished book available for you. Unfortunately I think that there is an added generation that we need to add to Baron's work on generations 1 through IX. I believe that Baron skipped a generation so I want to research his work before I commit it to a book. I believe that he skipped Lope de Padilla. I understand that mistakes creep into the best books, but I am determined to go over all the material before I submit the final product.
Rick A. Ricci
Thank you for the update on your book. I respect your work and am looking forward to the book's release.
annallison
Thank you for your kind words. I found many inconsistencies in Baron’s claims on the Padilla family so I am not including his work. I believe that Baron has merged the López de Padilla and Garcia de Padilla lines. The two lines are related, but how closely related they are is not clear to me.
I will be including some new information that I just found today. In researching my Padilla line, I discovered that George Washington, first president of the United States of America is a 13th cousin of mine. I haven’t yet figured out how many times removed.
It is “finds” like this that keep me from finishing the book because I keep adding information to it.
Thank you again,
Rick A. Ricci
My biological father was Lugo.
I have Lugo in my ancestry. And there is most likely a slave connection, but not as a trader. My Lugo ancestor is a “mulato libre” living in the early 1700’s. My ancestry DNA results do not show this African ancestry as it seems that it contributed less than 1% of my DNA. My Lugo ancestor is from Teocaltiche, Jalisco, Mexico. Some Lugo family members were originally Fernández de Lugo.
Rick
Hi tocayo,
I also have Lugo from Teocaltiche, who is your ancestor?
I descend from Tomas de Lugo and his wife Maria Teresa de Jesus Tejeda, through their daughter Maria Josefa Gertrudis. Here is her marriage in Jalos:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-XY8N-F?i=60&cc=1874591
I do not have very much info on them, only the marriage of another duaghter.
Saludos,
Richard
Hola Tacayo and primo,
I also descend from Josepha Gertudis Lugo, twice, through my father and mother. And I have to make a correction, It was her husband Jph. Justo Gutierrez that was a mulato. María Josepha Gertrudis Lugo was an “española.”
I descend from their son, Pedro Justo Gutierrez y Lugo baptized 7/feb/1753 in Jalostotitlán.
Pedro Jose Gutierrez married Maria de la Merced Saines De Santiago. Their daughter, Felipa (Feliciana) Gutierrez married José María Gomez and had at least two daughters. My father descends from one of the daughters, Justa Rufina Gomez Gutierrez and my mother descends from the other daughter, Maria de la Trinidad Gómez Gutierrez.
I would like to hear how you descend from Maria Josepha Gertrudis Lugo.
Saludos,
Rick
A few of us have researched families from that area, and would be happy to help you learn more. Could you share with us more information? Names of ancestors?
Como se podra observar, las ramas de Felipe Perez y Juliana Esparza estan incompletas. Desgraciadamente se me han acabado las pistas, y no me es posible continuarlas.
Hola mi nombre es Ruben Alcala Delgado.
Busco informasion sobre el apellido Alcala, desendientes de Agustin Alcala y Atanacia de la Cruz.
Agustin Alcala nacio en Hujucar Jalisco o tal vez en Valparaiso Zac.
I'm afraid my Spanish is bad, my apologies..
I have Alcala family that has one record for the area of Valparaiso even though his siblings say they are from Fresnillo and Lavor de Marquez, Jerez Zacatecas. The records have them as Mulato, Mestiso and Espanol so take your pick but this is the one that says he is from Valparaiso. Some records say Alcala and some say Alcalan, Julian's brother Tiburcio Alcala is my direct ancestor through is son Marcial Alcala, his childrens records say Espanol!
Marriage information recorded 18 Jan 1794 in Jerez
Jose Julian Alcalan, Mulato Libre age 20 from Valle de Valparaiso 8 years ago
Parents: Juan Seferino Alcalan and Maria Francisca Serrano
With: Maria Ylaria, India age 20 from Pueblo de Mesquintique 13 years
Ago
Parents: Maria Ysavel de la Lus, father unknown
Witness: Juan de Santiago Rodrigues, Mulato Libre age 30, vecino
Witness: Juan de San Pedro, Mulato Libre age 60, vecino
Witness: Julian Rito, Mulato Libre age 40 vecino
source: 0439899 marriage information
I also have many records for Spaniards named Alcala in Michoacan in the later 1600's. My records are posted on Rootsweb.com
Linda in Everett
--- On Tue, 3/17/09, Ruben Alcala Delgado wrote:
From: Ruben Alcala Delgado
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Apellido ALCALA
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 10:13 AM
Hola mi nombre es Ruben Alcala Delgado.
Busco informasion sobre el apellido Alcala, desendientes de Agustin Alcala y
Atanacia de la Cruz.
Agustin Alcala nacio en Hujucar Jalisco o tal vez en Valparaiso Zac. al rededor
the 1785.
First of all thank you for responding to my post, for the last 4-5 years I have been resurging the web for records for the Alcala within Zacatecas and Jalisco.
I have records of seven generations including my sons, I would like to go one more level I am searching for any information on Agusting Alcala born around 1785.
Thank you
Ruben Alcala
> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 11:55:29 -0700
> From: longsjourney@yahoo.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Apellido ALCALA
>
> I'm afraid my Spanish is bad, my apologies..
>
> I have Alcala family that has one record for the area of Valparaiso even though his siblings say they are from Fresnillo and Lavor de Marquez, Jerez Zacatecas. The records have them as Mulato, Mestiso and Espanol so take your pick but this is the one that says he is from Valparaiso. Some records say Alcala and some say Alcalan, Julian's brother Tiburcio Alcala is my direct ancestor through is son Marcial Alcala, his childrens records say Espanol!
>
> Marriage information recorded 18 Jan 1794 in Jerez
> Jose Julian Alcalan, Mulato Libre age 20 from Valle de Valparaiso 8 years ago
> Parents: Juan Seferino Alcalan and Maria Francisca Serrano
> With: Maria Ylaria, India age 20 from Pueblo de Mesquintique 13 years
> Ago
> Parents: Maria Ysavel de la Lus, father unknown
> Witness: Juan de Santiago Rodrigues, Mulato Libre age 30, vecino
> Witness: Juan de San Pedro, Mulato Libre age 60, vecino
> Witness: Julian Rito, Mulato Libre age 40 vecino
> source: 0439899 marriage information
>
> I also have many records for Spaniards named Alcala in Michoacan in the later 1600's. My records are posted on Rootsweb.com
>
> Linda in Everett
>
> --- On Tue, 3/17/09, Ruben Alcala Delgado wrote:
>
> From: Ruben Alcala Delgado
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Apellido ALCALA
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 10:13 AM
>
> Hola mi nombre es Ruben Alcala Delgado.
> Busco informasion sobre el apellido Alcala, desendientes de Agustin Alcala y
> Atanacia de la Cruz.
> Agustin Alcala nacio en Hujucar Jalisco o tal vez en Valparaiso Zac. al rededor
> the 1785.
Ruben, be sure to check under Alcalan too since I've found half my Alcala line that way..
Good luck in your search,
Linda in Everett
--- On Wed, 3/18/09, Ruben Alcala wrote:
From: Ruben Alcala
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Apellido ALCALA
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 1:09 PM
First of all thank you for responding to my post, for the last 4-5 years I have
been resurging the web for records for the Alcala within Zacatecas and Jalisco.
I have records of seven generations including my sons, I would like to go one
more level I am searching for any information on Agusting Alcala born around
1785.
Thank you
Ruben Alcala
Hello, my name is Gustavo Carrillo. I have been researching my
Carrillo lineage for some time now. I'm also glad for the
opportunity of joining this group. Even though most of my ancestors
I am also Macias Valadez (from Aguascalientes) and found this blog very useful:
https://historiasdeencarnacion.blogspot.com/2010/07/4-el-sauz-de-los-ma…
I still don't know how to share files, but I've got a Macias Valadez family report of my own. If I can figure how to share it I will gladly send it to you.
Are you connected to Pablo Centeno, married to Dominga Almeida, parents of Maria Gabriela Centeno? Citation: "México, Zacatecas, registros parroquiales, 1605-1980," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-BM8J-2?cc=1804458&wc=3P9B-… : 21 May 2014), Ojo Caliente > Ojo Caliente > Información matrimonial 1800-1801 > image 215 of 351; paróquias Católicas, Zacatecas (Catholic Church parishes, Zacatecas).
weblink: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-BM8J-2?cc=1804458&wc=3P9B-…
I am trying to find info on this Dominga Almeida's family and would appreciate your help if possible.
Thanks,
Rick
Bienvenido Gustavo.
Espero que efectivamente obtengas lo que buscas en este grupo. Recibe
mis cordiales saludos y cuenta conmigo como tu atento y seguro
servidor.
Israel Valles
Gomez Palacio, Durango, Mexico
2011/6/16, sr92809@sbcglobal.net :
> Hello, my name is Gustavo Carrillo. I have been researching my
> Carrillo lineage for some time now. I'm also glad for the
> opportunity of joining this group. Even though most of my ancestors
> lived in northern Jalisco, I recently learned that one of them
> Marcos Carrillo, came from Jerez, Zacatecas. He married Petra
> Bermudes and moved to Cartagenas in Totatiche, Jalisco around
> 1760. I have been searching for his marriage record without any
> luck. I believe he married in Jerez,Zacatecas between 1740-1750.
> I want to find out who his parents were but the records I have
> found on his children don't give information on grandparents.
> If anyone could give me any information I would be very grateful.
> Thanks Gustavo.
I checked my records but found nothing for Marcos and Petra but will watch.. my
records are on Rootsweb.com. file is called Mexico
good luck in your search. I've found Bermudez, Velmudes, Bermudes the hardest
family to research because of the many surname spellings.
good luck in your search.
Linda Castanon-Long
________________________________
From: "sr92809@sbcglobal.net"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, June 16, 2011 5:18:19 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] New Member Introduction
Hello, my name is Gustavo Carrillo. I have been researching my
Carrillo lineage for some time now. I'm also glad for the opportunity of joining
this group. Even though most of my ancestors
lived in northern Jalisco, I recently learned that one of them
Marcos Carrillo, came from Jerez, Zacatecas. He married Petra
Bermudes and moved to Cartagenas in Totatiche, Jalisco around
1760. I have been searching for his marriage record without any
luck. I believe he married in Jerez,Zacatecas between 1740-1750.
I want to find out who his parents were but the records I have found on his
children don't give information on grandparents.
If anyone could give me any information I would be very grateful.
Thanks Gustavo. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
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Hello
For purposes of introduction, my name is Paul Centeno. My father and I have
been researching our family genealogy for quite a long time. My father¹s
cousin managed to trace the Centeno family back over seven generations, and
has provided us with official records. My grandfather was Valente Centeno
(1881), then Tomas Centeno (1853), Juan (1826), Jose Antonio Abad (1790),
Jose Ramon (1752), Jose Felix , Jose Matias (1688), Jacinto (1654). On the
maternal side we have traced the Reynosos back until 1610. All of these
families began in Celaya and Aguascalientes, but most recently lived in
Union de San Antonio, San Juan de los Lagos, San Miguel el Alto, and San
Julian, Jalisco. Other names predominant in my family tree are:
Padilla-Davila, Lozano, Marquez, Aldrete, de Hermosillo, Ruiz de Esparza,
Romo de Vivar. I am interested in located data which will trace the Centeno
name back to Diego, who we believe was the first Centeno in Mexico. I have
many documents that have been handed down to me which could possibly help
others who are tracing family histories from the areas of which I spoke, and
looking for the surnames I mentioned above
Hello Paul,
I can't help with your Centeno line but I might be of help on some of the
other lines since I looked at your file. We are related through a lot of the
families you mentioned and a few more. However, I believe our closest link
is through Villalobos. I'll explain why I believe this.
In the marriage entry of Anastacio Gutíerrez Garcia to María Josefa de Soto
y Romo de Vivar in Lagos de Moreno it states that he is from [Hacienda] El
Carrizo and she is from [Hacienda] La Mesa [Redonda] de los Villalobos.
http://gw0.geneanet.org/index.php3?b=arman212_w&lang=es;p=anastacio;n=g…
In the marriage entry of the parents of Anastacio, Juan Antonio Soto Mayor
Villalobos to María Francisca Romo de Vivar y Gallardo it states he is the
from [Hacienda] La Mesa Redonda and the son of son of Joseph de Soto Mayor
and Mariana Villalobos.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/show#uri=https%3A//api.family…
In almost all of the baptisms and marriages of the brothers and sisters of
Juan Antonio Soto Mayor Villalobos they are mentioned as being from La Mesa.
Based on that fact plus the names of some of the godparents in some of the
records it seems their mother was named as María Sebastiana Villalobos in
her marriage record instead of María Ana as she is named in all of the other
documents. In that marriage record it states she is from La Mesa and the
daughter of Andrés de Villalobos and Catarina Zermeño de Anda [Altamirano].
https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/show#uri=https%3A//api.family…
last two married 11 Feb 1711 in Lagos de Moreno. In his second
marriage to María Guadalupe de Soto Mayor it states he is from La Mesa.
Andrés was the son of Salvador de Villalobos Macías Valadez and Angela de
Ayala Cortez and was baptized 21 Dec 1677 in Aguascalientes. Salvador and
Angela married 14 Nov 1672 in Aguascalientes. Salvador was the son of Tomás
de Villalobos y Pérez de Nava and Catarina Macías Valadez y Villegas. Tomás
was the son of Cristóbal de Villalobos San Clares and María Pérez de Nava.
Cristóbal de Villalobos was originally from Spain and the progenitor of the
majority of the Villalobos in Los Altos and Aguascalientes. Our common
ancestor is Salvador de Villalobos Macías Valadez if María Ana (Mariana) and
María Sebastiana are the same person. There is a marriage that had a
dispensation that might prove they are the same person if the información
matrimonial or the dispensation is found. Ana Petra Soto Villalobos and
Ignacio Sanromán were married 24 Nov 1779 in Lagos and in the entry it
states they had a dispensation for cuarto grado de consanguinidad.
Another family that is incomplete in your file is that of José Pablo Lozano
González. His mother was María González y Rubio and her parents were Joseph
Gil González y Rubio and Antonia Gertrudis de la Mota y Padilla. The father
of José Pablo was José María Lozano López who was the son of Joseph Ignacio
Lozano Lozano and Juana María Anselma López de Nava Martín del Campo married
in 1761. Joseph Ignacio was the son of Joaquín Lozano Enríquez and Mariana
Lozano Galván married in 1728. Joaquín was the son of Pedro Lozano Gutiérrez
de Mendoza and Beatriz Enríquez del Castillo. Pedro was the son of José
Lozano González de Rubalcava and Josefa Gutiérrez de Mendoza y Camacho
Riquelme married in 1668. José was the son of Jacinto de Lozano González de
Isla and Juana González de Rubalcava y Rodas married in 1632. Jacinto was
the son of Cristóbal de Lozano Martinez and María González de Isla.
I have a lot more info on the Villalobos and Lozano families I can send to
you in a file if you would like for me to send it to you.
Regards,
Armando
On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 10:17 AM, Paul Centeno wrote:
> Hello
>
> For purposes of introduction, my name is Paul Centeno. My father and I have
> been researching our family genealogy for quite a long time. My father¹s
> cousin managed to trace the Centeno family back over seven generations, and
> has provided us with official records. My grandfather was Valente Centeno
> (1881), then Tomas Centeno (1853), Juan (1826), Jose Antonio Abad (1790),
> Jose Ramon (1752), Jose Felix , Jose Matias (1688), Jacinto (1654). On the
> maternal side we have traced the Reynosos back until 1610. All of these
> families began in Celaya and Aguascalientes, but most recently lived in
> Union de San Antonio, San Juan de los Lagos, San Miguel el Alto, and San
> Julian, Jalisco. Other names predominant in my family tree are:
> Padilla-Davila, Lozano, Marquez, Aldrete, de Hermosillo, Ruiz de Esparza,
> Romo de Vivar. I am interested in located data which will trace the
> Centeno
> name back to Diego, who we believe was the first Centeno in Mexico. I have
> many documents that have been handed down to me which could possibly help
> others who are tracing family histories from the areas of which I spoke,
> and
> looking for the surnames I mentioned above
>
>
hello my name is katherine brecht. i signed up for neutros ranchos in order to see if i can find more information about my mom's side of the family(her maiden name is quesada, and her parents were born and raised in jerez, zacatecas)
i have already done some of my own research on her side of the family. i'm also willing to help out other members too.
i am taking this over for my mom since she has been to busy to work on her family tree. i also occasionally help me dad out with side of the family(my dad's a white-american, hence my last name).
what names in Jerez and what years are you talking abt.. I also research Jerez and have found most Quezadas were from Huejucar, Jalisco
Linda in Everett
________________________________
From: katy brecht
To: "research@nuestrosranchos.org"
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 3:51 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] introduction
hello my name is katherine brecht. i signed up for neutros ranchos in order to see if i can find more information about my mom's side of the family(her maiden name is quesada, and her parents were born and raised in jerez, zacatecas)
i have already done some of my own research on her side of the family. i'm also willing to help out other members too.
i am taking this over for my mom since she has been to busy to work on her family tree. i also occasionally help me dad out with side of the family(my dad's a white-american, hence my last name).
katherine brecht- yes my quezada ancestors orginally came from huejucar also. but for some reason. my mom's granapa jose manule quezada moved jerez, then his wife gave birth to my maternfather jos manuel quesada(quezada) jr. in jerez
what year was your grandfather born in Jerez? What your your grandfathers Mothers surname? Did your grandfather marry in Jerez?
________________________________
From: "detective1920@yahoo.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] introduction
katherine brecht- yes my quezada ancestors orginally came from huejucar also. but for some reason. my mom's granapa jose manule quezada moved jerez, then his wife gave birth to my maternfather jos manuel quesada(quezada) jr. in jerez
he was born in jerez in the year 1941. his mother's name was guadelupe Banuelos.
My name is Raul Bracamonte Munoz and I'm thrilled to be a new member of the Nuestros Ranchos familia.
While my research takes me to many places within northern Mexico, a key focus area for me is Villa de Cos and the surrounding haciendas. I also have an interest in Jerez, Fresnillo, and the city of Zacatecas.
Within these areas of Zacatecas, the primary family names I am researching are: Munoz, Vasquez del Mercado, Rodriguez and Sanchez.
Before 1850, I also have an interest in Rodarte, Gonzalez de Solis, Martinez de Orosco, Ruiz de Chavez, Caldera, Romo de Vivar, Carrion, Delgadillo, Castrejon, Campa y Cos, de Avila, and Marin.
Please feel free to review my folder with descendant charts that include many of these names.
When researching film, I typically concentrate on older files that have not been indexed. So if you would like me to keep an eye open for family members you may be researching, please feel free to let me know.
I'd also like to note that I only place individuals in my family tree if I have direct and conclusive evidence that supports the relationship. Happy to show my work if there are any questions regarding individuals found in my files. There are a few exceptions within the Rodarte family.
Other than familysearch.org and ancestry.com, if anyone can recommend any other sites that provide records for my focus area, please let me know.
Thank you.
Raul
Hello list,
I joined this group several weeks back and have enjoyed reading your postings since then. My name is Michael Lopez, I live in San Diego County, I am recently retired and have decided to search for some genealogical history on my parents now that I have the time. My family of origin was "different" than most families in the sense that my parents came to America without any other family and never went back. Hence, I grew up without ever meeting any grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. My children gave me a xmas gift of participating in National Geographic's genographic project and I have become fascinated with the whole idea of genealogy and DNA. In any event here is what I know about my mother. Maria de Jesus Bravo was born in 1906 at a small ranchito named El Zapote, which was located about a mile or so outside the small village of La Ribera, Jalisco. La Rivera Jalisco is immediately adjacent to Yurecuaro, Michoacan and are separated by the Rio Lerma. So while mom
Saludos Mike,
welcome to the group and please do ask your questions. Now I haven't
looked into it and can't say one way or the other if your mom was
baptized in Jalisco or Michoacan, but it makes sense if that was the
closest place where she would have been taken. Now mind you if you go
and get some of these films and it turns out that your mom doesn't turn
up in the records just buckle up and keep searching in the next closest
location that has records. Anyway here are the films you can order from
your closest Family History Center there in San Diego. As always if any
of this is unclear just ask your specific questions. . .who knows but
someone might know the answer:
Title
Registros parroquiales, 1768-1932
Authors
Iglesia Católica. Santa María (Yurécuaro, Michoacán) (Main Author)
Notes
Microfilme de manuscritos en el archivo de la parroquia y el archivo
diocesano de Zamora.
Microfilmes de 16 mm. son de reducción alta (42x).
Catholic parish registers of baptisms, confirmations, marriages,
marriage petitions, and deaths from Yurécuaro, Michoacán, Mexico.
Subjects
México, Michoacán, Yurécuaro - Church records
Format
Manuscript (On Film)
Language
Spanish
Publication
Salt Lake City, Utah : Filmados por la Sociedad Genealógica de Utah,
1965-2002
Physical
en 34 carretes de microfilme ; 35 mm., 16 mm.
Film Notes
Note - Location [Film]
Bautismos 1768-1778 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706427 ]
Bautismos 1778-1802 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706428 ]
Bautismos 1790-1814 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706429 ]
Bautismos 1806-1844 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706430 ]
Bautismos 1844-1858 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706431 ]
Bautismos 1858-1879 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706432 ]
Bautismos 1879-1889 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706433 ]
Bautismos 1889-1899 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706434 ]
Bautismos 1899-1908 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706435 ]<----------------------
Confirmaciones 1869-1914 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706436 ]
Matrimonios 1768-1788,1791-1868 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706437 ]
Matrimonios 1868-1920 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706438 ]
Información matrimonial 1778-1780 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706439 ]
Información matrimonial 1780-1783 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706440 ]
Información matrimonial 1783-1785,1787-1790 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706441 ]
Información matrimonial 1790-1804 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706442 ]
Información matrimonial 1793-1802 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706443 ]
Información matrimonial 1802-1818 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706444 ]
Información matrimonial 1854-1864,1867-1870 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706445 ]
Información matrimonial 1870-1878 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706446 ]
Información matrimonial 1878-1885 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706447 ]
Información matrimonial 1885-1893 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706448 ]
Información matrimonial 1893-1897 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706449 ]
Información matrimonial 1897-1902 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706450 ]
Información matrimonial 1903-1905 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706451 ]
Defunciones 1768-1785 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706452 ]
Defunciones 1785-1834 - FHL INTL Film [ 706453 ]
Defunciones 1824-1865 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706454 ]
Defunciones 1865-1890 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706455 ]
Defunciones 1890-1904 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706456 ]
Bautismos v. 22-31 1908-1931 (v. 26 incluye 9 páginas de actas de la
capellanía de Monteleón de 1914) - VAULT INTL Film [ 1855674 Items 1-10 ]
Confirmaciones v. 1-2 1922-1925 - VAULT INTL Film [ 1855674 Items 11-12 ]
Matrimonios v. 8-9 1920-1932 - VAULT INTL Film [ 1855674 Items 13-14 ]
Informaciones matrimoniales 1905-1911 - VAULT INTL Film [ 1855674 Items
15-16 ]
Informaciones matrimoniales v. 34-44 1911-1924 - VAULT INTL Film [
1855675 ]
Informaciones matrimoniales v. 45-47 1924-1928, 1930 - VAULT INTL Film
[ 1855676 Items 1-3 ]
Defunciones 1904-1926 - VAULT INTL Film [ 1855676 Item 4 ]
Información matrimonial 1872, 1916, 1917, 1922, 1923-1926 - FHL INTL
Film [ 2244715 Items 14 - 15 ]
© 2002 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved.
Mike Bernard Lopez wrote:
>Hello list,
> I joined this group several weeks back and have enjoyed reading your postings since then. My name is Michael Lopez, I live in San Diego County, I am recently retired and have decided to search for some genealogical history on my parents now that I have the time. My family of origin was "different" than most families in the sense that my parents came to America without any other family and never went back. Hence, I grew up without ever meeting any grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. My children gave me a xmas gift of participating in National Geographic's genographic project and I have become fascinated with the whole idea of genealogy and DNA. In any event here is what I know about my mother. Maria de Jesus Bravo was born in 1906 at a small ranchito named El Zapote, which was located about a mile or so outside the small village of La Ribera, Jalisco. La Rivera Jalisco is immediately adjacent to Yurecuaro, Michoacan and are separated by the Rio Lerma. So while mom
> was born on the Jalisco side of the Rio Lerma, I think she was baptized in the Michoacan side at Yurecuaro. Mother's father was named Ladislao Bravo and her mother was named Maria ( Margarita?) Tinoco. Mom's maternal grandmother was named Estefania Rizo. My mother had 3 sisters whose names were Juana, Carmen and Luisa. She had one brother named Trinidad who married someone also named Trinidad. The families from El Zapote were "concentrated" to La Ribera during the Cristiada and I believe they remained there for most, perhaps all of their lives. My uncle Trinidad was killed during the Cristiada leaving a widow and (I think) one young son. I look forward to receiving your comments/suggestions/etc. I would like to thank Alicia of your group for the sincere encouragement she gave me to write this posting.
> Michael
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
> Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
Mike,
Thanks for your posting, you did pretty good for a novice. Based on the geographical information you provided, I went to www.fallingrain.com/world and found La Rivera on the world map. You too can do it, go to the website, click on Mexico≥find the letter L≥, LA≥, scroll and find La Rivera Jalisco. It will show you the nearest towns and their distance from La Rivera also the nearest airport You will also find that it is now the rainy season. The graph shows the precipitation within the last week. Many thanks to Kitty Cortez who has provided us with this link. Perhaps when you are ready to begin ordering films, knowing this geographical data will be useful in your search.
Welcome Mike, you are now embarked on a fantastic journey that will consume much of your time and thoughts and will be sooo rewarding.
Bienvenido,
Alicia Avelar Olmos de Carrillo
San Jose, Ca
The map you sent is very good and helps me to refine my question in which La
Estancia my grandfather Jose Pedro Rodriguez was born.
There are 4 La Estancias listed in the map. On page 112 of Clotilde
Quiralte's book on Nochistlan she identifies 3 as La Estancia de los
Delgadillos, La Estancia de los Xaureguis, and La Estancia de los Lomelines.
All 3 names appear as common ancestors in my grandfather's tree as they do
in my grandmother's tree.
My grandfather was born on February 17, 1883.
How do I find out in which La Estancia my grandfather was born?
Sincerely,
Charles Clark
From: Charles Clark cclark98@pacbell.net
My grandfather was born on February 17, 1883.
How do I find out in which La Estancia my grandfather was born?
Charles Clark
Charles,
My advice is to find some of your grandfather's siblings if he had any and see what their documents say in terms of place of birth or baptism. Also have you found or searched for their parents. Many times when you put all the documents together as in all the childrens' birth records as well as the marriage records, they lead you to a common place/rancho/estancia for all as most people stayed within the same area or region for several generations.
Hope this helps,
Alicia
I found a document listing the name Rancho Zapote more than 60 times (La Ley Orgánica de división territorial de Michoacán - 20 de julio de 1909,) obviously not all referring to the same ranch, but to different ones with similar names.
I am afraid that name by itself will be of little help, and maybe will even confuse you.
My own grandfather was born in rancho El Zapote de San Ignacio in Yurecuaro.
If you google Rancho El Zapote you will currently find three ranchos with that same name. There is one near La Piedad but with so many in the past, even that one I doubt is my grandfather's.
I am also researching rancho El Zapote. I first thought my ancestors owned it, but there is a list of peones and mediadores which included three of my family surnames, which might be a clue that they simply worked the land, but did not own it.
Google Monografía del Municipio de Yurécuaro Michoacán and look for that list.
If your ancestor is listed there, it might be useful information.
Welcome to NuestrosRanchos Michael,
I was raised in San Diego (Point Loma). We lived there from 1945 to 1962, until my parents moved "up North," to Oakland.
Have you gotten your DNA test results, what's your haplogroup?
Pat Silva Corbera
Mike Bernard Lopez wrote:
Hello list,
I joined this group several weeks back and have enjoyed reading your postings since then. My name is Michael Lopez, I live in San Diego County, I am recently retired and have decided to search for some genealogical history on my parents now that I have the time. My family of origin was "different" than most families in the sense that my parents came to America without any other family and never went back. Hence, I grew up without ever meeting any grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. My children gave me a xmas gift of participating in National Geographic's genographic project and I have become fascinated with the whole idea of genealogy and DNA. In any event here is what I know about my mother. Maria de Jesus Bravo was born in 1906 at a small ranchito named El Zapote, which was located about a mile or so outside the small village of La Ribera, Jalisco. La Rivera Jalisco is immediately adjacent to Yurecuaro, Michoacan and are separated by the Rio Lerma. So while mom
was born on the Jalisco side of the Rio Lerma, I think she was baptized in the Michoacan side at Yurecuaro. Mother's father was named Ladislao Bravo and her mother was named Maria ( Margarita?) Tinoco. Mom's maternal grandmother was named Estefania Rizo. My mother had 3 sisters whose names were Juana, Carmen and Luisa. She had one brother named Trinidad who married someone also named Trinidad. The families from El Zapote were "concentrated" to La Ribera during the Cristiada and I believe they remained there for most, perhaps all of their lives. My uncle Trinidad was killed during the Cristiada leaving a widow and (I think) one young son. I look forward to receiving your comments/suggestions/etc. I would like to thank Alicia of your group for the sincere encouragement she gave me to write this posting.
Michael
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
Hi Pat,
Thanks 4 the welcome note! Yes, I have received the dna results. I have been classified as Haplogroup R1b1c subject to an additional 3 SNP's that they have not obtained as yet (FTDNA). That in itself was most surprizing.
Thanks again,
Michael
Patricia Corbera wrote:
Welcome to NuestrosRanchos Michael,
I was raised in San Diego (Point Loma). We lived there from 1945 to 1962, until my parents moved "up North," to Oakland.
Have you gotten your DNA test results, what's your haplogroup?
Pat Silva Corbera
Mike Bernard Lopez wrote:
Hello list,
I joined this group several weeks back and have enjoyed reading your postings since then. My name is Michael Lopez, I live in San Diego County, I am recently retired and have decided to search for some genealogical history on my parents now that I have the time. My family of origin was "different" than most families in the sense that my parents came to America without any other family and never went back. Hence, I grew up without ever meeting any grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. My children gave me a xmas gift of participating in National Geographic's genographic project and I have become fascinated with the whole idea of genealogy and DNA. In any event here is what I know about my mother. Maria de Jesus Bravo was born in 1906 at a small ranchito named El Zapote, which was located about a mile or so outside the small village of La Ribera, Jalisco. La Rivera Jalisco is immediately adjacent to Yurecuaro, Michoacan and are separated by the Rio Lerma. So while mom
was born on the Jalisco side of the Rio Lerma, I think she was baptized in the Michoacan side at Yurecuaro. Mother's father was named Ladislao Bravo and her mother was named Maria ( Margarita?) Tinoco. Mom's maternal grandmother was named Estefania Rizo. My mother had 3 sisters whose names were Juana, Carmen and Luisa. She had one brother named Trinidad who married someone also named Trinidad. The families from El Zapote were "concentrated" to La Ribera during the Cristiada and I believe they remained there for most, perhaps all of their lives. My uncle Trinidad was killed during the Cristiada leaving a widow and (I think) one young son. I look forward to receiving your comments/suggestions/etc. I would like to thank Alicia of your group for the sincere encouragement she gave me to write this posting.
Michael
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
Hola a todos:
Where could one find those secret baptisms?
En donde se pueden encontrar los bautizos secretos?
Rosie Cordova
Alessandro,
no escrivo el espanol muy bien...pero los bautismos secretos son los ninos que tien padres que no son casados.....
the secret baptisms are those that the parents are not married.....hence the child is a bastard...
Stella
-----Original Message-----
From: viteliky@hotmail.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:43 pm
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
Hola a todos:
En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en el que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama "BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con este tipo de registro "secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a cualquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era secreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño bautizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto que pudieran proporcionarme.
Alessandro
********************************************************************************
Hello everyone:
Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the film he is registered/christened is called "Secret Christenings 1868-1900" at Church records for Zapopan, Jal. Finding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I would like to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can extend or explain me more about this. Why was it secret? What does it contain? Is by ch
ance, the baptized child a son of a violation, incest or something similar? I would appreciate very much any information related.
Sincerely
Alessandro
Esthela:
Thank you for your comment. You know what? About what you say, it is very strange saying the parents were not married because this child I am talking about is the 8th son (and the last-one) for the same parents. No doubt he is their son, I consider after 30 years living together and having 8 sons this couple of parents SHOULD be married. I really think they were married, and I think there must be another cause for this type of registration too.
But anyway, I hope to find out soon, I thank your comment and I take it just like that till new information comes out. This is my very 1st. hint.
LIC. ALESSANDRO VITELA
Ser de Luz!!!
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 22:48:11 -0400
> From: sjlstar@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
>
> Alessandro,
> no escrivo el espanol muy bien...pero los bautismos secretos son los ninos que tien padres que no son casados.....
>
> the secret baptisms are those that the parents are not married.....hence the child is a bastard...
>
> Stella
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: viteliky@hotmail.com
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:43 pm
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
>
>
> Hola a todos:
>
> En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en el que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama "BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con este tipo de registro "secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a cualquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era secreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño bautizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto que pudieran proporcionarme.
>
> Alessandro
>
> ********************************************************************************
>
> Hello everyone:
>
> Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the film he is registered/christened is called "Secret Christenings 1868-1900" at Church records for Zapopan, Jal. Finding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I would like to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can extend or explain me more about this. Why was it secret? What does it contain? Is by ch
> ance, the baptized child a son of a violation, incest or something similar? I would appreciate very much any information related.
>
> Sincerely
>
> Alessandro
Alessandro,
I searched high and low for my grandmothers birth cert. could not find it, then the lady at the LDS center told me to look at the bautismos secretos......the illegite kids.........and yes I found her there.......my gr grandmother and this man had sex without being married....(conceiving my grandmother).....he begged her to marry him but no.........my gr grandmother then married someone else and five years later her first daughter was born, five more children none of them have their birth certs in the bautismos secretos.....this was 1906 when my grandmother was born...so yes it was very embarressing not to be married then
Stella
-----Original Message-----
From: ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:06 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
sthela:
Thank you for your comment. You know what? About what you say, it is very
trange saying the parents were not married because this child I am talking
bout is the 8th son (and the last-one) for the same parents. No doubt he is
heir son, I consider after 30 years living together and having 8 sons this
ouple of parents SHOULD be married. I really think they were married, and I
hink there must be another cause for this type of registration too.
But anyway, I hope to find out soon, I thank your comment and I take it just
ike that till new information comes out. This is my very 1st. hint.
LIC. ALESSANDRO VITELA
Ser de Luz!!!
> To: rese
arch@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 22:48:11 -0400
From: sjlstar@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
Alessandro,
no escrivo el espanol muy bien...pero los bautismos secretos son los ninos que
ien padres que no son casados.....
the secret baptisms are those that the parents are not married.....hence the
hild is a bastard...
Stella
-----Original Message-----
From: viteliky@hotmail.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:43 pm
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
Hola a todos:
En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en el que se encuentra
l registro de su bautizo se llama "BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia
atolica de Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con este tipo de registro "secreto" me
orprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a cualquier persona que sepa sobre este
ema si me puede ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era
ecreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño bautizado producto de
nsesto, violación o algo por el estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al
especto que pudieran proporcionarme.
Alessandro
********************************************************************************
>
Hello everyone:
Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the film he is
egistered/christened is called "Secret Christenings 1868-1900" at Church
ecords for Zapopan, Jal. Finding this type of "secr
et" record shoked me, I
ould like to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can extend or
xplain me more about this. Why was it secret? What does it contain? Is by ch
ance, the baptized child a son of a violation, incest or something similar? I
ould appreciate very much any information related.
Sincerely
Alessandro
Thursday, July 9, 2009
I have seen and used a similar film from the Atotonilco el Alto area. The children listed, or in particular the one that I was researching, had both parents and both sets of grandparents on the Secret Baptismal microfilm. The child's father was married and the father apparently came for the child after his birth. I do not know what happened to the mother. I do have extensive records of her parents, siblings, and ancestors. I have similar records for the father.
The child grew up in the household of his father with half siblings and the father's wife. The half siblings, who all were apparently older, were reportedly very mean to the child. Nothing bad was said about the husband's wife. I did not know the child as he grew up and became a man but I did know his son Lorenzo.
Uncle Lorenzo was ashamed of his father's humble beginnings and did not tell me about his dad until he himself was a very old man. However, others in the family did tell me the family secret and I was able to get at the truth.
The child was also listed in the regular baptismal records with only his mother and maternal grandparents and padrinos.
It is said that about 1/3 of the children born in Mexico did not have legally wed parents. It is not for me/us to judge. I would have liked to have known all the facts about Uncle Lorenzo's father when I first started research in 1978 because it would have made my search a bit easier. However we learn things when we do and that is why we keep digging for the true facts.
Sincerely,
Patricia Burton
San Diego, Ca.
Researching in Ayo el Chico, Atotonilco el Alto, and La Barca, Jalisco
--- On Thu, 7/9/09, viteliky@hotmail.com wrote:
> From: viteliky@hotmail.com
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 7:43 PM
> Hola a todos:
>
> En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en
> el que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama
> "BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de
> Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con este tipo de registro
> "secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a
> cualquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede
> ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era
> secreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño
> bautizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el
> estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto
> que pudieran proporcionarme.
>
> Alessandro
>
> ********************************************************************************
>
> Hello everyone:
>
> Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the
> film he is registered/christened is called "Secret
> Christenings 1868-1900" at Church records for Zapopan, Jal.
> Finding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I would like
> to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can
> extend or explain me more about this. Why was it secret?
> What does it contain? Is by chance, the baptized child a son
> of a violation, incest or something similar? I would
> appreciate very much any information related.
>
> Sincerely
>
> Alessandro
Patricia,
no it is not for us to judge, and it just sickens me to know that from the beginning it was like my grandmother had to be hidden. she also was treated horribly by her mothers husband and their children........in later years when they were adults of coarse they loved her and she forgot it all.......she was very religious....the stuff they did to her....was horrible and always brought up that she was illegit.........they spit in her food, her step dad would walk by while she was eating and pass gas right there next to her...........she was made to do all the work...........sheesh why didnt gr grandmother give her away??? so sad......
Stella
-----Original Message-----
From: patricia burton
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:48 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
hursday, July 9, 2009
I have seen and used a similar film from the Atotonilco el Alto area. The
hildren listed, or in particular the one that I was researching, had both
arents and both sets of grandparents on the Secret Baptismal microfilm. The
hild's father was married and the father apparently came for the child after
is birth. I do not know what happened to the mother. I do have extensive
ecords of her parents, siblings, and ancestors. I have similar records for the
ather.
The child grew up in the household of his father with half siblings and the
ather's wife. The half siblings, who all were apparently older, were
eportedly very m
ean to the child. Nothing bad was said about the husband's
ife. I did not know the child as he grew up and became a man but I did know
is son Lorenzo.
Uncle Lorenzo was ashamed of his father's humble beginnings and did not tell me
bout his dad until he himself was a very old man. However, others in the
amily did tell me the family secret and I was able to get at the truth.
The child was also listed in the regular baptismal records with only his mother
nd maternal grandparents and padrinos.
It is said that about 1/3 of the children born in Mexico did not have legally
ed parents. It is not for me/us to judge. I would have liked to have known
ll the facts about Uncle Lorenzo's father when I first started research in 1978
ecause it would have made my search a bit easier. However we learn things when
e do and that is why we keep digging for the true facts.
Sincerely,
atricia Burton
an Diego, Ca.
esearching in Ayo el Chico, Atotonilco el Alto, and La Barca, Jalisco
--- On Thu, 7/9/09, viteliky@hotmail.com wrote:
> From: viteliky@hotmail.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 7:43 PM
Hola a todos:
En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en
el que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama
"BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de
Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con es
te tipo de registro
"secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a
cualquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede
ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era
secreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño
bautizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el
estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto
que pudieran proporcionarme.
Alessandro
********************************************************************************
Hello everyone:
Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the
film he is registered/christened is called "Secret
Christenings 1868-1900" at Church records for Zapopan, Jal.
Finding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I would like
to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can
extend or explain me more about this. Why was it secret?
What does it contain? Is by chance, the baptized child a son
of a violation, incest or something similar? I would
appreciate very much any information related.
Sincerely
Alessandro
yes both my grandmothers parents were listed on the secret baptism, and so were the grandparents, but the parents were not married.
-----Original Message-----
From: patricia burton
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:48 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
hursday, July 9, 2009
I have seen and used a similar film from the Atotonilco el Alto area. The
hildren listed, or in particular the one that I was researching, had both
arents and both sets of grandparents on the Secret Baptismal microfilm. The
hild's father was married and the father apparently came for the child after
is birth. I do not know what happened to the mother. I do have extensive
ecords of her parents, siblings, and ancestors. I have similar records for the
ather.
The child grew up in the household of his father with half siblings and the
ather's wife. The half siblings, who all were apparently older, were
eportedly very mean to the child. Nothing bad was said about the husband's
ife. I did not know the child as he grew up and became a man but I did know
is son Lorenzo.
Uncle Lorenzo was ashamed of his father's humble beginnings and did not tell me
bout his dad until he himself was a very old man. However, others in the
amily did tell me the family secret and I was able to get at the truth.
The child was also listed in the regular baptismal records with only his mother
nd maternal grandparents
and padrinos.
It is said that about 1/3 of the children born in Mexico did not have legally
ed parents. It is not for me/us to judge. I would have liked to have known
ll the facts about Uncle Lorenzo's father when I first started research in 1978
ecause it would have made my search a bit easier. However we learn things when
e do and that is why we keep digging for the true facts.
Sincerely,
atricia Burton
an Diego, Ca.
esearching in Ayo el Chico, Atotonilco el Alto, and La Barca, Jalisco
--- On Thu, 7/9/09, viteliky@hotmail.com wrote:
> From: viteliky@hotmail.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 7:43 PM
Hola a todos:
En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en
el que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama
"BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de
Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con este tipo de registro
"secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a
cualquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede
ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era
secreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño
bautizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el
estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto
que pudieran proporcionarme.
Alessandro
********************************************************************************
Hello everyone:
R
esearching information about an ancestor, I found that the
film he is registered/christened is called "Secret
Christenings 1868-1900" at Church records for Zapopan, Jal.
Finding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I would like
to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can
extend or explain me more about this. Why was it secret?
What does it contain? Is by chance, the baptized child a son
of a violation, incest or something similar? I would
appreciate very much any information related.
Sincerely
Alessandro
In Jerez they were a little kinder and called it hijos naturales but I found there were many people who were there as umarried but I had a marriage record for them. As someone else said they had many children sometimes and one wonders who decided they belonged in this book. In Jerez the film is 0439889 and covers 1867 to 1875. Unfortunately I did not get to complete it.
Linda in Everett
--- On Thu, 7/9/09, ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO wrote:
From: ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 8:06 PM
Esthela:
Thank you for your comment. You know what? About what you say, it is very strange saying the parents were not married because this child I am talking about is the 8th son (and the last-one) for the same parents. No doubt he is their son, I consider after 30 years living together and having 8 sons this couple of parents SHOULD be married. I really think they were married, and I think there must be another cause for this type of registration too.
But anyway, I hope to find out soon, I thank your comment and I take it just like that till new information comes out. This is my very 1st. hint.
LIC. ALESSANDRO VITELA
Ser de Luz!!!
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 22:48:11 -0400
> From: sjlstar@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
>
> Alessandro,
> no escrivo el espanol muy bien...pero los bautismos secretos son los ninos que tien padres que no son casados.....
>
> the secret baptisms are those that the parents are not married.....hence the child is a bastard...
>
> Stella
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: viteliky@hotmail.com
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:43 pm
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
>
>
> Hola a todos:
>
> En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en el que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama "BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con este tipo de registro "secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a cualquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era secreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño bautizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto que pudieran proporcionarme.
>
> Alessandro
>
> ********************************************************************************
>
> Hello everyone:
>
> Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the film he is registered/christened is called "Secret Christenings 1868-1900" at Church records for Zapopan, Jal. Finding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I would like to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can extend or explain me more about this. Why was it secret? What does it contain? Is by ch
> ance, the baptized child a son of a violation, incest or something similar? I would appreciate very much any information related.
>
> Sincerely
>
> Alessandro
I guess no one should be surprised to what lengths some will go to show their lack of humanity, even within their own families.
I used to think it rare when I heard of one sibling stealing a family inheritance from other brothers and sisters but not anymore. It happened in my fathers family and I heard of an old friend and it happened in his, and then an ex-girlfriend robbed her only brother (only surviving family member) of his share of inheritance. It makes you wonder. Rolando
--- On Thu, 7/9/09, sjlstar@aol.com wrote:
From: sjlstar@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 11:03 PM
Patricia,
no it is not for us to judge, and it just sickens me to know that from the beginning it was like my grandmother had to be hidden. she also was treated horribly by her mothers husband and their children........in later years when they were adults of coarse they loved her and she forgot it all.......she was very religious....the stuff they did to her....was horrible and always brought up that she was illegit.........they spit in her food, her step dad would walk by while she was eating and pass gas right there next to her...........she was made to do all the work...........sheesh why didnt gr grandmother give her away??? so sad......
Stella
-----Original Message-----
From: patricia burton
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:48 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
hursday, July 9, 2009
I have seen and used a similar film from the Atotonilco el Alto area. The
hildren listed, or in particular the one that I was researching, had both
arents and both sets of grandparents on the Secret Baptismal microfilm. The
hild's father was married and the father apparently came for the child after
is birth. I do not know what happened to the mother. I do have extensive
ecords of her parents, siblings, and ancestors. I have similar records for the
ather.
The child grew up in the household of his father with half siblings and the
ather's wife. The half siblings, who all were apparently older, were
eportedly very m
ean to the child. Nothing bad was said about the husband's
ife. I did not know the child as he grew up and became a man but I did know
is son Lorenzo.
Uncle Lorenzo was ashamed of his father's humble beginnings and did not tell me
bout his dad until he himself was a very old man. However, others in the
amily did tell me the family secret and I was able to get at the truth.
The child was also listed in the regular baptismal records with only his mother
nd maternal grandparents and padrinos.
It is said that about 1/3 of the children born in Mexico did not have legally
ed parents. It is not for me/us to judge. I would have liked to have known
ll the facts about Uncle Lorenzo's father when I first started research in 1978
ecause it would have made my search a bit easier. However we learn things when
e do and that is why we keep digging for the true facts.
Sincerely,
atricia Burton
an Diego, Ca.
esearching in Ayo el Chico, Atotonilco el Alto, and La Barca, Jalisco
--- On Thu, 7/9/09, viteliky@hotmail.com wrote:
> From: viteliky@hotmail.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 7:43 PM
Hola a todos:
En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en
el que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama
"BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de
Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con es
te tipo de registro
"secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a
cualquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede
ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era
secreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño
bautizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el
estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto
que pudieran proporcionarme.
Alessandro
********************************************************************************
Hello everyone:
Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the
film he is registered/christened is called "Secret
Christenings 1868-1900" at Church records for Zapopan, Jal.
Finding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I would like
to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can
extend or explain me more about this. Why was it secret?
What does it contain? Is by chance, the baptized child a son
of a violation, incest or something similar? I would
appreciate very much any information related.
Sincerely
Alessandro
Rolando,
are we related??..............lol
My gr gr grandmother/father left my grandmother an inheritance.......and yes those half siblings stole it! they and their parents were left nothing for the way they treated my grandmother. My grandmothers mother somehow did some kind of shannanigans and took it from my grandmother and gave it to her other kids, cause it wasn't fair that their grandparents left them nothing......if you knew my granmother you would of loved her, everyone did....no bitterness for the way her life turned out.
Stella
we dig all this stuff up huh?
-----Original Message-----
From: Rolando Romo
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:05 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
I guess no one should be surprised to what lengths some will go to show their
ack of humanity, even within their own families.
used to think it rare when I heard of one sibling stealing a family
nheritance from other brothers and sisters but not anymore. It happened in my
athers family and I heard of an old friend and it happened in his, and then an
x-girlfriend robbed her only brother (only surviving family member) of his
hare of inheritance. It makes you wonder. Rolando
--- On Thu, 7/9/09, sjlstar@aol.com wrote:
rom: sjlstar@aol.com
ubject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
o: research@nuestrosranchos.org
ate: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 11:03 PM
atricia,
o it is not for us to judge, and it just
sickens me to know that from the
eginning it was like my grandmother had to be hidden. she also was treated
orribly by her mothers husband and their children........in later years when
hey were adults of coarse they loved her and she forgot it all.......she was
ery religious....the stuff they did to her....was horrible and always brought
p that she was illegit.........they spit in her food, her step dad would walk
y while she was eating and pass gas right there next to her...........she was
ade to do all the work...........sheesh why didnt gr grandmother give her
way??? so sad......
tella
----Original Message-----
rom: patricia burton
o: research@nuestrosranchos.org
ent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:48 pm
ubject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
ursday, July 9, 2009
have seen and used a similar film from the Atotonilco el Alto area. The
ildren listed, or in particular the one that I was researching, had both
rents and both sets of grandparents on the Secret Baptismal microfilm. The
ild's father was married and the father apparently came for the child after
s birth. I do not know what happened to the mother. I do have extensive
cords of her parents, siblings, and ancestors. I have similar records for the
ther.
he child grew up in the household of his father with half siblings and the
ther's wife. The half siblings, who all were apparently older, were
portedly very m
an to the child. Nothing bad was said about
the husband's
fe. I did not know the child as he grew up and became a man but I did know
s son Lorenzo.
ncle Lorenzo was ashamed of his father's humble beginnings and did not tell me
out his dad until he himself was a very old man. However, others in the
mily did tell me the family secret and I was able to get at the truth.
he child was also listed in the regular baptismal records with only his mother
d maternal grandparents and padrinos.
t is said that about 1/3 of the children born in Mexico did not have legally
d parents. It is not for me/us to judge. I would have liked to have known
l the facts about Uncle Lorenzo's father when I first started research in 1978
cause it would have made my search a bit easier. However we learn things when
do and that is why we keep digging for the true facts.
incerely,
tricia Burton
n Diego, Ca.
searching in Ayo el Chico, Atotonilco el Alto, and La Barca, Jalisco
-- On Thu, 7/9/09, viteliky@hotmail.com wrote:
From: viteliky@hotmail.com
ubject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
o: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
ate: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 7:43 PM
ola a todos:
En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en
l que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama
BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de
apopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con es
e tipo de registro
secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle20a
ualquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede
mpliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era
ecreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño
autizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el
stilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto
ue pudieran proporcionarme.
Alessandro
********************************************************************************
Hello everyone:
Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the
ilm he is registered/christened is called "Secret
hristenings 1868-1900" at Church records for Zapopan, Jal.
inding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I would like
o ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can
xtend or explain me more about this. Why was it secret?
hat does it contain? Is by chance, the baptized child a son
f a violation, incest or something similar? I would
ppreciate very much any information related.
Sincerely
Alessandro
Yes you don't have to dig too deep or too far to find this kind of thing. It is one of those major sins - greed.
My father was falsely accused of hoarding his father's inheritance for himself and a sister convinced the majority of her siblings to support her and she convinced my grandmother, on her deathbed, to make her the executor of my grandmother's will. Needless to say, that the sister not only took everything for herself and didn't even share with her siblings that had supported her but she refused to make repairs on properties and pay taxes. She lost it all and none of the other brothers and sisters ever saw a dime. My father had been giving them all a small share of the benefits and putting most of the money back to repairs and taxes. Their greed didn't pay off in the long run. The fact is that Dad didn't care so much about the money but how his siblings, with a few exceptions, turned on him. It has hurt him deeply. All of his brothers and sisters are gone now, except for one - guess which one? She cries whenever she sees my Dad - I guess there is some
guilt there, good!
I suspect that many families have come apart due to such conflicts. It will be interesting to see what happens to the family of Michael Jackson.
--- On Fri, 7/10/09, sjlstar@aol.com wrote:
From: sjlstar@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Friday, July 10, 2009, 4:10 PM
Rolando,
are we related??..............lol
My gr gr grandmother/father left my grandmother an inheritance.......and yes those half siblings stole it! they and their parents were left nothing for the way they treated my grandmother. My grandmothers mother somehow did some kind of shannanigans and took it from my grandmother and gave it to her other kids, cause it wasn't fair that their grandparents left them nothing......if you knew my granmother you would of loved her, everyone did....no bitterness for the way her life turned out.
Stella
we dig all this stuff up huh?
-----Original Message-----
From: Rolando Romo
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:05 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
I guess no one should be surprised to what lengths some will go to show their
ack of humanity, even within their own families.
used to think it rare when I heard of one sibling stealing a family
nheritance from other brothers and sisters but not anymore. It happened in my
athers family and I heard of an old friend and it happened in his, and then an
x-girlfriend robbed her only brother (only surviving family member) of his
hare of inheritance. It makes you wonder. Rolando
--- On Thu, 7/9/09, sjlstar@aol.com wrote:
rom: sjlstar@aol.com
ubject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
o: research@nuestrosranchos.org
ate: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 11:03 PM
atricia,
o it is not for us to judge, and it just
sickens me to know that from the
eginning it was like my grandmother had to be hidden. she also was treated
orribly by her mothers husband and their children........in later years when
hey were adults of coarse they loved her and she forgot it all.......she was
ery religious....the stuff they did to her....was horrible and always brought
p that she was illegit.........they spit in her food, her step dad would walk
y while she was eating and pass gas right there next to her...........she was
ade to do all the work...........sheesh why didnt gr grandmother give her
way??? so sad......
tella
----Original Message-----
rom: patricia burton
o: research@nuestrosranchos.org
ent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:48 pm
ubject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
ursday, July 9, 2009
have seen and used a similar film from the Atotonilco el Alto area. The
ildren listed, or in particular the one that I was researching, had both
rents and both sets of grandparents on the Secret Baptismal microfilm. The
ild's father was married and the father apparently came for the child after
s birth. I do not know what happened to the mother. I do have extensive
cords of her parents, siblings, and ancestors. I have similar records for the
ther.
he child grew up in the household of his father with half siblings and the
ther's wife. The half siblings, who all were apparently older, were
portedly very m
an to the child. Nothing bad was said about
the husband's
fe. I did not know the child as he grew up and became a man but I did know
s son Lorenzo.
ncle Lorenzo was ashamed of his father's humble beginnings and did not tell me
out his dad until he himself was a very old man. However, others in the
mily did tell me the family secret and I was able to get at the truth.
he child was also listed in the regular baptismal records with only his mother
d maternal grandparents and padrinos.
t is said that about 1/3 of the children born in Mexico did not have legally
d parents. It is not for me/us to judge. I would have liked to have known
l the facts about Uncle Lorenzo's father when I first started research in 1978
cause it would have made my search a bit easier. However we learn things when
do and that is why we keep digging for the true facts.
incerely,
tricia Burton
n Diego, Ca.
searching in Ayo el Chico, Atotonilco el Alto, and La Barca, Jalisco
-- On Thu, 7/9/09, viteliky@hotmail.com wrote:
From: viteliky@hotmail.com
ubject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
o: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
ate: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 7:43 PM
ola a todos:
En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en
l que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama
BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de
apopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con es
e tipo de registro
secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle20a
ualquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede
mpliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era
ecreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño
autizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el
stilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto
ue pudieran proporcionarme.
Alessandro
********************************************************************************
Hello everyone:
Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the
ilm he is registered/christened is called "Secret
hristenings 1868-1900" at Church records for Zapopan, Jal.
inding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I would like
o ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can
xtend or explain me more about this. Why was it secret?
hat does it contain? Is by chance, the baptized child a son
f a violation, incest or something similar? I would
ppreciate very much any information related.
Sincerely
Alessandro
I suspect that many families have come apart due to such conflicts. It will be
nteresting to see what happens to the family of Michael Jackson.
Soooo true.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rolando Romo
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:22 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
Yes you don't have to dig too deep or too far to find this kind of thing. It is
ne of those major sins - greed.
y father was falsely accused of hoarding his father's inheritance for himself
nd a sister convinced the majority of her siblings to support her and she
onvinced my grandmother, on her deathbed, to make her the executor of my
randmother's will. Needless to say, that the sister not only took everything
or herself and didn't even share with her siblings that had supported her but
he refused to make repairs on properties and pay taxes. She lost it all and
one of the other brothers and sisters ever saw a dime. My father had been
iving them all a small share of the benefits and putting most of the money back
o repairs and taxes. Their greed didn't pay off in the long run. The fact is
hat Dad didn't care so much about the money but how his siblings, with a few
xceptions, turned on him. It has hurt him deeply. All of his brothers and
isters are gone now, except for one - guess which one? She cries whenever she
ees my Dad - I guess there is some
guilt there, good!
I suspect that ma
ny families have come apart due to such conflicts. It will be
nteresting to see what happens to the family of Michael Jackson.
--- On Fri, 7/10/09, sjlstar@aol.com wrote:
rom: sjlstar@aol.com
ubject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
o: research@nuestrosranchos.org
ate: Friday, July 10, 2009, 4:10 PM
olando,
re we related??..............lol
y gr gr grandmother/father left my grandmother an inheritance.......and yes
hose half siblings stole it! they and their parents were left nothing for the
ay they treated my grandmother. My grandmothers mother somehow did some kind
f shannanigans and took it from my grandmother and gave it to her other kids,
ause it wasn't fair that their grandparents left them nothing......if you knew
y granmother you would of loved her, everyone did....no bitterness for the way
er life turned out.
tella
e dig all this stuff up huh?
----Original Message-----
rom: Rolando Romo
o: research@nuestrosranchos.org
ent: Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:05 pm
ubject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
I guess no one should be surprised to what lengths some will go to show their
ck of humanity, even within their own families.
used to think it rare when I heard of one sibling stealing a family
heritance from other brothers and sisters but not anymore. It happened in my
thers family and I heard of an old friend and it happened in his, and then an
-girlfriend robbed her only brother (only surviving family member
) of his
are of inheritance. It makes you wonder. Rolando
-- On Thu, 7/9/09, sjlstar@aol.com wrote:
rom: sjlstar@aol.com
bject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
: research@nuestrosranchos.org
te: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 11:03 PM
atricia,
it is not for us to judge, and it just
ickens me to know that from the
ginning it was like my grandmother had to be hidden. she also was treated
rribly by her mothers husband and their children........in later years when
ey were adults of coarse they loved her and she forgot it all.......she was
ry religious....the stuff they did to her....was horrible and always brought
that she was illegit.........they spit in her food, her step dad would walk
while she was eating and pass gas right there next to her...........she was
de to do all the work...........sheesh why didnt gr grandmother give her
ay??? so sad......
ella
----Original Message-----
om: patricia burton
: research@nuestrosranchos.org
nt: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:48 pm
bject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
rsday, July 9, 2009
ave seen and used a similar film from the Atotonilco el Alto area. The
ldren listed, or in particular the one that I was researching, had both
ents and both sets of grandparents on the Secret Baptismal microfilm. The
ld's father was married and the father apparently came for the child after
birth. I do not know what happened to the mother. I do have extensive
ords of her
parents, siblings, and ancestors. I have similar records for the
her.
e child grew up in the household of his father with half siblings and the
her's wife. The half siblings, who all were apparently older, were
ortedly very m
n to the child. Nothing bad was said about
he husband's
e. I did not know the child as he grew up and became a man but I did know
son Lorenzo.
cle Lorenzo was ashamed of his father's humble beginnings and did not tell me
ut his dad until he himself was a very old man. However, others in the
ily did tell me the family secret and I was able to get at the truth.
e child was also listed in the regular baptismal records with only his mother
maternal grandparents and padrinos.
is said that about 1/3 of the children born in Mexico did not have legally
parents. It is not for me/us to judge. I would have liked to have known
the facts about Uncle Lorenzo's father when I first started research in 1978
ause it would have made my search a bit easier. However we learn things when
o and that is why we keep digging for the true facts.
ncerely,
ricia Burton
Diego, Ca.
earching in Ayo el Chico, Atotonilco el Alto, and La Barca, Jalisco
- On Thu, 7/9/09, viteliky@hotmail.com wrote:
rom: viteliky@hotmail.com
bject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
te: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 7:43 PM
la a todos:
n busqueda20de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en
que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama
AUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de
popan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con es
tipo de registro
ecreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle20a
alquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede
pliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era
creto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño
utizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el
tilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto
e pudieran proporcionarme.
lessandro
*******************************************************************************
ello everyone:
esearching information about an ancestor, I found that the
lm he is registered/christened is called "Secret
ristenings 1868-1900" at Church records for Zapopan, Jal.
nding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I would like
ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can
tend or explain me more about this. Why was it secret?
at does it contain? Is by chance, the baptized child a son
a violation, incest or something similar? I would
preciate very much any information related.
incerely
lessandro
My husband's great grandmother said when she was young the priests would record baptisms in the book of "hijos naturales" if the father was not present for the baptism. Even if the priest knew the parents were married. She said the priests would not take anyone's word, but the father's that the child was legitimate.
> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 08:51:06 -0700
> From: longsjourney@yahoo.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
>
> In Jerez they were a little kinder and called it hijos naturales but I found there were many people who were there as umarried but I had a marriage record for them. As someone else said they had many children sometimes and one wonders who decided they belonged in this book. In Jerez the film is 0439889 and covers 1867 to 1875. Unfortunately I did not get to complete it.
>
> Linda in Everett
>
> --- On Thu, 7/9/09, ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO wrote:
>
>
> From: ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 8:06 PM
>
>
>
> Esthela:
>
>
>
> Thank you for your comment. You know what? About what you say, it is very strange saying the parents were not married because this child I am talking about is the 8th son (and the last-one) for the same parents. No doubt he is their son, I consider after 30 years living together and having 8 sons this couple of parents SHOULD be married. I really think they were married, and I think there must be another cause for this type of registration too.
>
>
>
> But anyway, I hope to find out soon, I thank your comment and I take it just like that till new information comes out. This is my very 1st. hint.
>
>
>
>
> LIC. ALESSANDRO VITELA
>
> Ser de Luz!!!
>
>
>
>
> > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 22:48:11 -0400
> > From: sjlstar@aol.com
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
> >
> > Alessandro,
> > no escrivo el espanol muy bien...pero los bautismos secretos son los ninos que tien padres que no son casados.....
> >
> > the secret baptisms are those that the parents are not married.....hence the child is a bastard...
> >
> > Stella
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: viteliky@hotmail.com
> > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:43 pm
> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
> >
> >
> > Hola a todos:
> >
> > En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en el que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama "BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con este tipo de registro "secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a cualquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era secreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño bautizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto que pudieran proporcionarme.
> >
> > Alessandro
> >
> > ********************************************************************************
> >
> > Hello everyone:
> >
> > Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the film he is registered/christened is called "Secret Christenings 1868-1900" at Church records for Zapopan, Jal. Finding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I would like to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can extend or explain me more about this. Why was it secret? What does it contain? Is by ch
> > ance, the baptized child a son of a violation, incest or something similar? I would appreciate very much any information related.
> >
> > Sincerely
> >
> > Alessandro
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Y tú, ¿ya actualizaste tu Perfil?
> http://www.actualizatuperfil.com.mx/
books are not secrets that are not classified as natural children, as in
tepetongo zacatecas Baptisms 1843-1860,1862-1919 of natural children - FHL
INTL Film [1158157]
no son libros secretos sin que estan catalogados como hijos naturales , como
en tepetongo zacatecas Bautismos de hijos naturales 1843-1860,1862-1919 -
FHL INTL Film [ 1158157 ]
2009/7/16 Lona Rivera
>
> My husband's great grandmother said when she was young the priests would
> record baptisms in the book of "hijos naturales" if the father was not
> present for the baptism. Even if the priest knew the parents were married.
> She said the priests would not take anyone's word, but the father's that the
> child was legitimate.
>
> > Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 08:51:06 -0700
> > From: longsjourney@yahoo.com
> > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
> >
> > In Jerez they were a little kinder and called it hijos naturales but I
> found there were many people who were there as umarried but I had a marriage
> record for them. As someone else said they had many children sometimes and
> one wonders who decided they belonged in this book. In Jerez the film is
> 0439889 and covers 1867 to 1875. Unfortunately I did not get to complete
> it.
> >
> > Linda in Everett
> >
> > --- On Thu, 7/9/09, ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
> > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 8:06 PM
> >
> >
> >
> > Esthela:
> >
> >
> >
> > Thank you for your comment. You know what? About what you say, it is very
> strange saying the parents were not married because this child I am talking
> about is the 8th son (and the last-one) for the same parents. No doubt he is
> their son, I consider after 30 years living together and having 8 sons this
> couple of parents SHOULD be married. I really think they were married, and
> I think there must be another cause for this type of registration too.
> >
> >
> >
> > But anyway, I hope to find out soon, I thank your comment and I take it
> just like that till new information comes out. This is my very 1st. hint.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > LIC. ALESSANDRO VITELA
> >
> > Ser de Luz!!!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > > Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 22:48:11 -0400
> > > From: sjlstar@aol.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
> > >
> > > Alessandro,
> > > no escrivo el espanol muy bien...pero los bautismos secretos son los
> ninos que tien padres que no son casados.....
> > >
> > > the secret baptisms are those that the parents are not
> married.....hence the child is a bastard...
> > >
> > > Stella
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: viteliky@hotmail.com
> > > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > > Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:43 pm
> > > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
> > >
> > >
> > > Hola a todos:
> > >
> > > En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en el que se
> encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama "BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900"
> de la Iglesia catolica de Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con este tipo de
> registro "secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a cualquier
> persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede ampliar o ilustrar con
> informacion al respecto. Porque era secreto? Que es lo que puede contener?
> Es acaso el niño bautizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el
> estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto que pudieran
> proporcionarme.
> > >
> > > Alessandro
> > >
> > >
> ********************************************************************************
> > >
> > > Hello everyone:
> > >
> > > Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the film he is
> registered/christened is called "Secret Christenings 1868-1900" at Church
> records for Zapopan, Jal. Finding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I
> would like to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can extend
> or explain me more about this. Why was it secret? What does it contain? Is
> by ch
> > > ance, the baptized child a son of a violation, incest or something
> similar? I would appreciate very much any information related.
> > >
> > > Sincerely
> > >
> > > Alessandro
> > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> > >
> > > To post, send email to:
> > > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> > >
> > > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> > >
> > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> > >
> > > To post, send email to:
> > > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> > >
> > > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Y tú, ¿ya actualizaste tu Perfil?
> > http://www.actualizatuperfil.com.mx/
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync.
> http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009
Thank you Esthela, I get the point. It is just it sounded strange to me.
LIC. ALESSANDRO VITELA
Ser de Luz!!!
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 23:29:44 -0400
> From: sjlstar@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
>
> Alessandro,
> I searched high and low for my grandmothers birth cert. could not find it, then the lady at the LDS center told me to look at the bautismos secretos......the illegite kids.........and yes I found her there.......my gr grandmother and this man had sex without being married....(conceiving my grandmother).....he begged her to marry him but no.........my gr grandmother then married someone else and five years later her first daughter was born, five more children none of them have their birth certs in the bautismos secretos.....this was 1906 when my grandmother was born...so yes it was very embarressing not to be married then
> Stella
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:06 pm
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
>
>
>
>
> sthela:
>
> Thank you for your comment. You know what? About what you say, it is very
> trange saying the parents were not married because this child I am talking
> bout is the 8th son (and the last-one) for the same parents. No doubt he is
> heir son, I consider after 30 years living together and having 8 sons this
> ouple of parents SHOULD be married. I really think they were married, and I
> hink there must be another cause for this type of registration too.
>
> But anyway, I hope to find out soon, I thank your comment and I take it just
> ike that till new information comes out. This is my very 1st. hint.
>
>
> LIC. ALESSANDRO VITELA
> Ser de Luz!!!
>
>
> > To: rese
> arch@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 22:48:11 -0400
> From: sjlstar@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
>
> Alessandro,
> no escrivo el espanol muy bien...pero los bautismos secretos son los ninos que
> ien padres que no son casados.....
>
> the secret baptisms are those that the parents are not married.....hence the
> hild is a bastard...
>
> Stella
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: viteliky@hotmail.com
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:43 pm
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
>
>
> Hola a todos:
>
> En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en el que se encuentra
> l registro de su bautizo se llama "BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia
> atolica de Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con este tipo de registro "secreto" me
> orprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a cualquier persona que sepa sobre este
> ema si me puede ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era
> ecreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño bautizado producto de
> nsesto, violación o algo por el estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al
> especto que pudieran proporcionarme.
>
> Alessandro
>
> ********************************************************************************
> >
> Hello everyone:
>
> Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the film he is
> egistered/christened is called "Secret Christenings 1868-1900" at Church
> ecords for Zapopan, Jal. Finding this type of "secr
> et" record shoked me, I
> ould like to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can extend or
> xplain me more about this. Why was it secret? What does it contain? Is by ch
> ance, the baptized child a son of a violation, incest or something similar? I
> ould appreciate very much any information related.
>
> Sincerely
>
> Alessandro
Oh my gosh yes Alessandro its very strange!!!
How do you think I felt when this lady told me to look in the Bautismos SECRETOS........what the heck was this? secretos??? secrets???? what??? then I find my grandmother.....and why she is there and I tell my mother and she tells me...dont tell your grandmother!!!!......(about the baptism) My mother really hates that that I do this geneology.....doesn't like me finding out the family secrets.......lol.......later my gr grandmother married her first cousin and had these horrible siblings that made life very difficult for my grandmother.
Stella
-----Original Message-----
From: ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
hank you Esthela, I get the point. It is just it sounded strange to me.
IC. ALESSANDRO VITELA
Ser de Luz!!!
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 23:29:44 -0400
From: sjlstar@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
Alessandro,
I searched high and low for my grandmothers birth cert. could not find it,
hen the lady at the LDS center told me to look at the bautismos
ecretos......the illegite kids.........and yes I found her there.......my gr
randmother and this man had sex without being married....(conceiving my
randmother).....he begged her to marry him but no.........my gr grandmother
hen married someone else and five years later her first daughter was born, five
ore ch
ildren none of them have their birth certs in the bautismos
ecretos.....this was 1906 when my grandmother was born...so yes it was very
mbarressing not to be married then
Stella
-----Original Message-----
From: ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:06 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
sthela:
Thank you for your comment. You know what? About what you say, it is very
trange saying the parents were not married because this child I am talking
bout is the 8th son (and the last-one) for the same parents. No doubt he is
heir son, I consider after 30 years living together and having 8 sons this
ouple of parents SHOULD be married. I really think they were married, and I
hink there must be another cause for this type of registration too.
But anyway, I hope to find out soon, I thank your comment and I take it just
ike that till new information comes out. This is my very 1st. hint.
LIC. ALESSANDRO VITELA
Ser de Luz!!!
> To: rese
arch@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 22:48:11 -0400
From: sjlstar@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
Alessandro,
no escrivo el espanol muy bien...pero los bautismos secretos son los ninos que
> ien padres que no son casados.....
the secret baptisms are those that the parents are not married.....hence the
hild is a bastard...
Stella0D
-----Original Message-----
From: viteliky@hotmail.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:43 pm
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
Hola a todos:
En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en el que se encuentra
> l registro de su bautizo se llama "BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia
> atolica de Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con este tipo de registro "secreto"
e
orprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a cualquier persona que sepa sobre este
> ema si me puede ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era
ecreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño bautizado producto de
nsesto, violación o algo por el estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al
especto que pudieran proporcionarme.
Alessandro
********************************************************************************
> >
Hello everyone:
Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the film he is
egistered/christened is called "Secret Christenings 1868-1900" at Church
ecords for Zapopan, Jal. Finding this type of "secr
et" record shoked me, I
ould like to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can extend or
xplain me more about this. Why was it secret? What does it contain? Is by ch
ance, the baptized child a son of a violation, incest or something similar? I
ould appreciate very much any information related.
Sincerely
Alessa
ndro
I don't know about secret baptisms in the 1800's. However, during the Mexican Revolution in the early 1900's many Catholic Church officials had to go underground and were often killed or imprisoned for performing religious rites.
I had an aunt that was born in Mexico during the time of the revolution and my grandfather took her to a priest during the night and had her secretly baptized in order not to get both the priest and my grandfather in trouble with the revolutionaries. Yes, my grandfather and grandmother were legally married in Monterrey and my grandmother stayed at home that night in order to take care of my uncle who was a toddler at that time. My grandparents eventually moved to Texas to escape the violence of the revolution. With the exception of one cousin (that now lives in Monterrey) our entire family of descendants from my grandparents still live in the USA.
I don't know about secret baptisms in the 1800's. However, during the Mexican Revolution in the early 1900's many Catholic Church officials had to go underground and were often killed or imprisoned for performing religious rites.
I had an aunt that was born in Mexico during the time of the revolution and my grandfather took her to a priest during the night and had her secretly baptized in order not to get both the priest and my grandfather in trouble with the revolutionaries. Yes, my grandfather and grandmother were legally married in Monterrey and my grandmother stayed at home that night in order to take care of my uncle who was a toddler at that time. My grandparents eventually moved to Texas to escape the violence of the revolution. With the exception of one cousin (that now lives in Monterrey) our entire family of descendants from my grandparents still live in the USA.
Hello,
Welcome!
I have Pinos ancestry, too. I have Cruz, de Avila, de la Trinidad, Lopez, Padilla, Barcenas, and Nieto as some of my last names.
Juana Quesada Aka Juana D’Avalos