Nuestros Ranchos Site

Alfonso Reynoso Rábago

Raúl:

A mí también me cuesta mucho trabajo creer lo que dices respecto a los porcentajes de tu ascendencia y la de los mexicanos con relación a ser sueco-alemanes. La empresa que hizo el estudio de tu ADN, ¿no te jugó una vacilada, fue una tomadura de pelo? Basta con que examines los archivos parroquiales (están todos en FamilySearch.org) durante la colonia y te darás cuenta que más de la mitad de la población de los niños bautizados, los hombres y mujeres casados y los registros de defunciones en las parroquias de Los Altos de Jalisco son o indios o mulatos o mestizos o de otras castas. La población española de Los Altos de Jalisco hasta la Independencia de México no llegó a ser mayoría en ninguna comunidad, excepción hecha de Tepatitlán donde llegaron a ser un poquito más de la mitad españoles al final de la época de la colonia. La sangre india y la sangre mulata y de otras castas forma parte de la sangre de los alteños actuales. Los registros de ADN de los alteños que conozco y sobre todo el estudio atento de los registros parroquiales, revelan eso. Lo cual no impide que haya mujeres muy bonitas y hombres guapos (desde el punto de vista europeo) en los Altos.

Alguien me dijo (un cronista de una ciudad alteña) que los resultados de su ADN mostraron que era 100% judío. Que me disculpe el honorable cronista, pero seguramente ni el santo Rey David obtendría esos datos si se hubiera hecho un estudios de su ADN. Por favor... aquí no se trata de vaciladas. Nuestro primer compromiso es con la verdad. Aunque sea ésta inalcanzable, luchemos por acercarnos a ella y guardemos las vaciladas para otros lugares.

Un saludo.
Alfonso Reynoso Rábago

los franceses estuvieron en los altos 2 años. les gustaba mucho la
paranda. algunos era muy educados y serios. Raro el que les rentaran una
casa por que tenian fama de fiesteros y en dos años por ahi dejaron un hijo
o dos pero nada de una significante descendencia. Mas bien existe una
gran descendencia de sangre española. predominante judia en los altos de
jalisco

2014-12-04 18:57 GMT-06:00 :

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> DAILY DIGEST
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: Origen franc?s de los alte?os (Emilie Garcia)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 18:53:21 -0800
> From: Emilie Garcia
> To: "general@nuestrosranchos.org"
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Origen franc?s de los alte?os
> Message-ID:
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I don't think it was just Altenos who looked "French". My father was from
> Jerez, Zacatecas, and people with his surname Olague (a Basque name) first
> settled in Pinos, Zacatecas in the 1500s. My father said that his
> grandfather was called "el Frances" because he had blue eyes. When I did
> my research on the Olagues in Zacatecas, there were no French at all, only
> "espanol" going back to the 1600s in Zacatecas. When I went with my father
> to Zacatecas in the 1960s, we passed through some villages where the people
> were morenos with blue eyes. I asked why they had blue eyes (must to the
> consternation of my father), and they said that the French had been there.
> "Los Franceses estubieron agqui" they said, and they smiled.
>
> Emilie
> Port Orchard, WA
>
> > Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 11:49:05 -0600
> > From: fandemma@gmail.com
> > To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Origen franc?s de los alte?os
> >
> > Estoy totalmente de acuerdo contigo Alfonso. Los alte?os, y otra gente de
> > M?xico, tenia ojos azules desde antes de la Segunda Intervenci?n
> Francesa.
> > Mis t?os abuelos, de Lagos de Moreno, no hubieran podido haber tenido
> ojos
> > azules solo por medio de mi bisabuelo que era un vasco espa?ol con ojos
> > azules y sin sangre francesa comprobado por sus documentos que tengo
> hasta
> > el siglo XVI. Su matrimonio con una alte?a de Lagos de Moreno, de
> > ascendencia espa?ola y mestiza sin sangre francesa, fue la raz?n que dos
> de
> > sus hijos tuvieron ojos azules como otros alte?os sin ascendencia
> francesa.
> > Varios parientes lejanos de mi bisabuela tienen ojos azules y no tienen
> > ascendencia francesa en sus ?rboles geneal?gicos.
> >
> > Hace falta que mas personas que tienen parientes o ancestros con ojos
> > claros platique de su gente y de sus ?rboles y que escriben libros.
> Todav?a
> > hay gente en Los Altos que creen que son g?eros con ojos claros por tener
> > sangre francesa sin tener documentaci?n que lo comprueba y eso aunque
> saben
> > sobre el contenido de los tomos de Reto?os de La Nueva Espa?a y de los
> > muchos ?rboles de la gente de la regi?n. Ponen mas fe en un libro con
> > mentiras porque les dice lo que quieren creer y optan por ignorar Reto?os
> > de La Nueva Espa?a y dem?s documentaci?n que existe.
> >
> > De este matrimonio de Mateo Norinat o Naudinat y Leonarda Olivares no he
> > encontrado descendencia en Lagos de Moreno ni en el resto de Jalisco y
> > jam?s he escuchado mencionar ese apellido ni uno parecido. Han de haber
> ido
> > a vivir a otra parte de M?xico o afuera de M?xico. As? que los documentos
> > de ese matrimonio comprueban que si hubo algunos franceses en Los Altos
> de
> > Jalisco pero todav?a no hay comprobantes que hayan dejado descendencia en
> > Jalisco aparte del caso tuyo que mencionaste. Sigue siendo mito y no
> > historia ver?dica que los soldados franceses hayan sido causa de la piel
> > blanca, los ojos claros, y el pelo g?ero en Los Altos de Jalisco.
> >
> > Saludos,
> > Armando
> >
> >
> > 2014-12-01 12:31 GMT-06:00 :
> >
> > > Alfonso Reynoso R?bago
> > >
> > > Durante largo tiempo he estado investigando el origen racial de los
> > > Alte?os. Hay muchos mitos sobre ello. Se dice que son blancos, rubios,
> de
> > > ojos claros porque los soldados franceses de la Segunda Intervenci?n
> > > dejaron su descendencia en Los Altos. En realidad despu?s de muchas
> > > b?squedas s?lo hab?amos encontrado la descendencia de un soldado del
> > > ej?rcito franc?s de origen africano, de raza negra, en Los Altos. Este
> > > descubrimiento reportado aqu? es extraordinariamente interesante porque
> > > fundamente el matrimonio de un soldado franc?s con una mujer mexicana
> (tal
> > > vez alte?a). ?Felicitaciones a su descubridor!
> > >
> > > En realidad algunos de los alte?os (no tanto como se dice) son blancos,
> > > rubios y de ojos claros no por la Segunda Intervenci?n Francesa sino
> porque
> > > desde muy antiguo algunos de los primeros labradores espa?oles
> presentaban
> > > esas caracter?sticas. Hay un obispo que habla en su visita pastoral
> all? a
> > > principios del siglo XVII de esas caracter?sticas de los antepasados
> de los
> > > que ahora nos llamamos alte?os. (He perdido la cita, si alguien la
> sabe, le
> > > agradecer?a si me la da a conocer).
> > >
> > > Adem?s, si vinieron soldados franceses con ojos azules, esa
> caracter?stica
> > > no la pod?an heredar a sus descendientes si la madre no ten?a ella o
> alguno
> > > de sus antepasados esa caracter?stica. Eso nos lo dice la biolog?a. Es
> > > decir que para tener ojos azules se necesita que tanto el padre como la
> > > madre aporten informaci?n gen?tica de ojos azules.
> > > Mil gracias por el aporte documental que es de primera.
> > >
> > > Un saludo cordial.
> > > Alfonso Reynoso R?bago -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > > Nuestros Ranchos General Mailing List
> > >
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> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>

Hola Raul,

Ya hay un proyecto de ADN para la gente de Los Altos y otro proyecto de ADN
de los estados de Jalisco, Aguas, y Zacatecas en FamilyTreeDNA. Ya son
muchos participantes y varios han hecho el análisis de ADN con las tres
compañías que hacen el análisis de ADN que son FTDNA, 23andme, y
AncestryDNA. De todas esas personas nadie tiene 80% de mis antepasados eran
Sueco-Alemanes. Tengo que ser sincero y no puedo creer que alguna compañía
te ha dado ese porcentaje. Es mas, ninguna de esas compañías tiene
Sueco-Aleman como uno de los posibles resultados. Tampoco tienen Celtico
¿Con cual compañía te hiciste el análisis? No lo hiciste con uno de las
principales compañías.

No es cierto que el promedio de ADN Sueco-Aleman entre los Mexicanos es el
48%. ¿De donde sacaste ese dato falso? Es cierto que muchos mexicanos
tienen el norte de Europa como uno de los resultados de su ADN pero todos
los españoles también lo tienen. Entonces los mexicanos lo tenemos por
medio de los españoles. Eso lo se porque tengo los resultados de ADN de
españoles nacidos y criados en España.

Armando

2014-12-04 20:42 GMT-06:00 Raul Padilla :

> Mi familia viene de Los Altos de Jalisco entre mis hermanos hay pelirojos,
> rubios y morenos claros, yo soy moreno claro, ojos cafes, la prueba de mi
> ADN dice que el 80% de mis antepasados eran Sueco-Alemanes, o sea mucho
> Visigodo, tambien mi ADN indica 4% Celtico(de los Celti-Iberos?). Lo de lo
> Frances en Mexico si existe pero es menos que lo Sefardito o lo Africano.
> El promedio de ADN Sueco-Aleman entre los Mexicanos es el 48%, lo de lo
> Nativo es el 32%, quien se lo imaginaba? Yo no! Raul
>
> 2014-12-04 16:57 GMT-08:00 :
>
>

The records for both of the marriages of Francisco Gutierrez de Hermosillo
were in Jalos. The first record is at
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18447-204-85 and the second is
at https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18447-9-6

Armando

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Ronald Reynoso wrote:

> Hola Raza, I am trying to find out if Francisco Gutierrez de Hermosillo
> who married Maria Dolores Gomez de Mendoza on Nov.19, 1730 in Tepatitlan
> and Tomasa Garcia on Dec.03. 1714 in San Juan de Los lagos is the same
> Francisco Gutierrez de Hermosillo. I couldn't find the marriage in
> Tepatitlan to see if it state that Francisco was a widower of Tomasa
> Garcia but couldn't find it nor the record of the one in San Juan de Los
> lagos. Either I am blind or some body made an error.
> Thank you for time and thank you Joseph.
>

Francisco Gutierrez de Hermosillo married Tomasa Garcia de Hermosillo first then Maria Dolores Gomez de Mendoza. I wrote a detailed book that studies the "Gutierrez de Hermosillo" family, which is my direct paternal line. It includes 13 chapter, one per family all the way back to the mid 1550's to the present. It's sold on amazon and is titles "Los Gutierrez del Rancho El Molino"

http://www.amazon.com/Los-Gutierrez-Rancho-Molino-Spanish/dp/1477640843…

Los Gutierrez del Rancho El Molino, ensayo historico y genealogico de una familia alteños desde los 1570 al presente

If you are interested in censos from Jalos from the 1600s

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-key…

Padrones de Jalos en Amazon de 1649, 1650, 1670, 1672, 1673 y 1679

Sergio Gutierrez

In Mexico a least, the denomination of mulato was given to many different racial mixes, not just those coming from african-erupean couples. investigating all the family members with this denominations lets us know many times what was the actual background, in many cases there where simply mestizos, but my theory is that their european side (spanish in this case) was likely a mix of it with arab/jew/indu and or the mix of any of these, also I come to believe that many mestizos of darker skin where called mulatos, I've seen families of "coyotes" often called mulatos. If we take in account that many "spanish" where in fact mix already with the arabs, africans and other races, we come to a fact that after the conversion there were many dark-skined spanish, I would suggest these where some of those later called in Mexico mulatos too.

Another important fact is that the way of denomination doesn't follow the "cast rules" this is that the child of an spanish and a native would not necessarily be called mestizo, sometimes they where also called "indio", spanish, coyote, mulato, etc. same goes for other combinations and thus in real practice, the cast denomination was used more like an physical description rather than an accurate biological race study. We also see many people who are denominated differently in each of their records.

Some reason why this "many" mulatos "disappear" was because they never existed as such in first place, obviously the facts changes by case.

RJ Quiralta

Ronnie,

I was reading a book on Mexican history (can't remember which one right now)
that was saying that the various revolutions took many of the indios and
mulatos, and those that were left were not enough to work the haciendas. I
image that could account for a good number.

And, I think that the term "espanol" is often misunderstood. I have seen so
many lines where there is a mixed marriage and then a couple generations
later they are "espanoles" again.

Just my two pesos :)

-Angelina-

-----Original Message-----
From: Ronald Reynoso
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 2:14 PM
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Los Altos -Mulatos ??

Hola Linda , I understand that the Espanoles kept to themselves but by
looking at the records ,there are tons of Mulatos to the point( I think)
there could of been some Mulato Groups/colonies/Individuals still around, It
looks like they were magicians and went poof,gone . For in example :I was
told by a distant relative who lived in El Rancho del Refugio (between
San Miguel el Alto, San Jose de Los Reynoso and San Julian
area(Jalisco),that a Rancho named La Puerta del Sauz(de Ramirez) that there
200 Slaves housed/lived there. I believe it was probably around 1800 give or
take a few years. Well I still ponder where did these guys go or what
happened to them. I don' t know ,maybe they just inter married I guess.
Ronnie

Hi Ronnie,
I'm not sure what year, but probably about 1810 (around revolutionary times), there must have been an effort to stop racial labeling on official
and church documents. I have even seen people referred to as "cuidadano" on civil baptismal records.
I've come across that all over Mexico just about then. I wonder if that has anything to do with it?
Alice
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 12/19/14, Ronald Reynoso wrote:

Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Los Altos -Mulatos ??
To: "general@nuestrosranchos.org"
Date: Friday, December 19, 2014, 4:14 PM

Hola Linda , I understand that the
Espanoles kept to themselves but by looking at the records
,there are tons of Mulatos to the point( I  think)
there could of been some Mulato Groups/colonies/Individuals
still around, It looks like they were magicians and went
poof,gone .  For in example :I was told by a distant
relative who lived in   El Rancho del 
Refugio (between  San Miguel el Alto, San Jose de Los
Reynoso and San Julian area(Jalisco),that a Rancho named La
Puerta del Sauz(de Ramirez) that there 200 Slaves
housed/lived there. I believe it was probably around 1800
give or take a few years. Well I still ponder where did
these guys go or what happened to them. I don' t know ,maybe
they just inter married I guess.
Ronnie
   
        
          
 

yeah records can be inconsistant with the race classifcation part

There is nothing incestuous here, as surprising as it might seems for us in this days. On one side, the word incest itself do not imply only consanguineous relationship, although it was later taught in that way, hence its actual meaning, in the old days (including the Bible times when marrying within the family was the norm for some cultures) it actually refer to an illicit relationship within the family, this is without contentment, premarriage or when involving affairs. The Catholic church actually had follow this concept for the longest but the latter puritan influences (specially those of the USA) had turn the eyes away from this even if some type of relationships still legal (and pretty much natural like cousin marriages) on many countries, that including Mexico. The rules where also carefully made in order no to affect people of power and wealth to whom consanguineous relationships where no just common but politically and economically important, there are some lines that where never crossed though, but all in all cousins and uncle/aun-niece-nephew marriages where possible and totally legal with the "dispensas" which in turn where nothing but another way of making income to the church, like if a document would erase any genetic trace. :)

RJ Quiralta

Does it have an index or anything such that it would say what towns are included?

I have thought of ordering this film as well, because it might shed some light where the church records go cold.

Thanks!

Sergio Salés

Hi Bill, Christopher and everybody in this group.

I want to share you what I've learned about the cases of "hijo de padres no conocidos".

In my case, my 5th great grandfather, Don Luis de Agraz, was listed in his marriage record as "español, hijo de padres no conocidos y de niño expuesto en la casa de Don José Lino de Agraz" this means that apparently he was adopted. The woman with whom he married was suposed to be his first cousin, Doña María Valentina de la Cueva y Ramírez de Prado, but a dispensa wasn't required because he was not the son of Doña Juana Mauricia de la Cueva y Benavides, José Lino's wife.

Okay, so at this moment I thought that was the end of my most important branch in my family tree because it's my first surname. When I checked, the book that my uncle Gabriel had written about my family, I saw that he was able to find the baptismal record of Luis. He was listed as "Luis Dionisio Rafael, español, de dos días de nacido, hijo de padres no conocidos y fueron sus padrinos Don José Lino de Agraz y Doña Juana Mauricia de la Cueva". On the same page there were other cases of children listed as hijos de padres no conocidos, but the priest couldn't precise the date of their birth he wrote down things such as "al parecer de 10 días de nacido" or he didn't write down the number of days the child had.

My uncle Gabriel,still listed Luis as a legitimate son of José Lino in the book, but I suposed that since the book was printed in 1950's and he died in 2009 he could have found the real parents of Luis. When I talked some months ago with one of Gabriel's sons also interested in Genealogy and History, he told me that his father had told him that Luis was an illegitimate son of a woman of the Agraz family with a lower class man and he was given to the care of his uncles. This is the most coherent answer to the case, because of many reasons. Luis was very close to his Agraz family, proof of this are the godparents of his children that were uncles of him from the Agraz side. Also, he received inheritance from his adoptive father and wasn't discriminated for being adopted because he was also the regidor alcalde of Tecolotlán some years before the independence of Mexico. His appearence would be known by latter generations because he ordered to be protrayed by oil painting, and his descendance was the most illustrious among the Agraz family, having graduates, poets, engineers, etc. in his sons, grandsons and beyond.

Other case, of "hijo de padres no conocidos" is the next dispensa:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18412-58699-28?cc=1874591&wc…

In the first page (120) Juan de Contreras states to be "hijo de padres no conocidos" and he wanted to marry Simona Preciado. Witnesses declared they were cousins and in page 123 he then declared the truth about his parents so he was the natural son of Don Martín de Bejarano and Ana de Contreras, he got his surname because of his mother's one, apparently the same case of Luis de Agraz.

Certainly is a little bit disappointing having hijo de padres no conocidos in your ancestors because for some reason they didn't want us to know who their parents really were, when all the people in the town already knew, especially for a prominent family such as the Agraz, the case of Luis was probably the gossip of the town hahaha.

Hope this helps you, any other experience form you in this case would be really appreciated.

Enrique Agraz

Christopher,

I just found the "Información Matrimonial" for Francisco Xavier Calvillo and María Michaela Macías, which include their declarations as well as those of three witnesses who knew them well. It confirms that Francisco Xavier Calvillo was "hijo de padres no conocidos" and that the parents of María Michaela Macías were Juan de Santiago [Macías] and María Gertrudis Gómez. Notice that Francisco Xavier and María Michaela declared to be 21 and 18 years old respectively, so they were born ca. 1732 and 1735. These dates will help you in your research. The link is as follows:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11707-152264-60?cc=1410092…

BILL FIGUEROA

----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Figueroa
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos]Calvillo, Macías, Ponce, Vásquez, Garcia

Christopher,

I almost missed your message because you sent it under a different subject line. It is important to use the same subject unless you really intend to change it. Anyway, I used cut-and-paste to add your comments to the thread below.

In answer to your question, I seriously doubt that you'll be able to identify the parents of Francisco Xavier Calvillo. Most of the time "hijo de padres no conocidos" indicates that the person was an adopted child and that he/she is using the surname of the adoptive parents. But don't give up, sometimes adopted children are mentioned in the final will and testament of their adoptive parents or godparents. I've seen many examples of this.

You should have better luck with the ancestors of María Michaela Macías, especially when you consider that her parents are mentioned in her marriage record, i.e. Juan de Santiago Macías and María Gertrudis Gómez, Good luck with your research !!

BILL FIGUEROA

----- Original Message -----

From: iChristopher94526@yahoo.com
To: bill_figueroa@usa.net
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 5:50 PM
Subject: Fwd: Research Digest, Vol 84, Issue 5

Wow, thank you very much Mr. Figueroa, I greatly appreciate your assistance. It helps a tremendous amount. Do you think there will ever be a way to determine his parents or do you think that may be the end of the line?

Christopher

----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Figueroa
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos]Calvillo, Macías, Ponce, Vásquez, Garcia

Hello Christopher,

First of all, welcome to the group. I'm sure in this forum you'll find many people with excellent knowledge of genealogy willing to help you. Unfortunately, my research has been focused on the founders and early settlers of Aguascalientes, so I don't have all the information you're looking for. However, I did find the marriage record for Francisco Xavier Calvillo and María Michaela Macías (Matrimonios 1750-1755, Images 134-135 of 246) which mentions who their parents were. The link is

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-13033-120401-21?cc=1410092…

In this record, the parents of Francisco Xavier Calvillo are said to be unknown (hijo de padres no conocidos) which suggests that he may've been an illegitimate child. The parents of María Michaela Macías are listed as Juan de Santiago and María Gertrudis Gómez. Both Francisco Xavier and María Michaela are said to be "españoles" living in Aguascalientes at the time of their marriage.

I've identified five children for this couple: Joseph Santiago (b.1756), Juan Antonio Esteban (b.1759), María Francisca Telésfora (b.1770), Luisa Antonia (b.1772) and María Dionisia de los Dolores Calvillo (b.1775). Hope this helps.

BILL FIGUEROA

----- Original Message -----
From: iChristopher94526@yahoo.com
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2013 6:13 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Calvillo, Macías, Ponce, Vásquez, Garcia

Hello everyone,

My name is Christopher de Cuéllar and I'm very new to geneaology and very new to the group. I've only been doing geneaology for about a month. My father died when I was very young so I never really knew much about my ancestors. That's probably why I started becoming interested in geneaology. I'm currently in high school and am trying to accomplish as much research during the winter break as possible. Mainly, spending all my free time pulling records I can find on family search. Also, if there's anyone that could assist in occasionally translating records for me, I would really appreciate it. I have dyslexia which really hasn't been a problem for me lately, but for some reason the ancient cursive writing on marriage and baptism records gives me a problem.

I'm currently researching my ancestors the Calvillo, Macías and Ponce families from Aguascalientes and the Vásquez and Garcia families from Guadalajara, Jalisco. Right now, I'm mainly interested in Francisco Xavier Calvillo that married María Michaela Macías at El Sagrario, Aguascalientes on 24 May 1753 and their ancestors. Also, interested in Gregorio Ponce that married María Gertrudis Rangel on 6 Feb 1796 and their ancestors.

In Guadalajara, the only record I have for my Vásquez ancestor is Miguel Vasquez born 29 Sept 1896 in Guadalajara and baptised on 19 Oct 1896 at Iglesia Parroquial de Jesus, Guadalajara. On his baptism it lists his parents as Cecilio Vásquez and Flora Garcia and his paternal grandparents as Leonardo Vásquez and Susana Garcia. It lists his maternal grandparents as Sinforiano Garcia and Donaciana Vejar. I'm especially looking for information on them.

Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance."

Christopher de Cuéllar

Christopher:

There is a similar case of Francisco Xavier, Is Augustin Manuel Calvillo, son of "Padres no conocidos", but according to a descendant of his, was probably the illegitimate son of one of the priests surnamed Calvillo, who were very influential in this region at their time.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-12048-124774-65?cc=1410092…

Lo que das fructifica. Lo que te guardas se pudre.
Miguel Beltran

Hello Christopher,

First of all, welcome to the group. I'm sure in this forum you'll find many people with excellent knowledge of genealogy willing to help you. Unfortunately, my research has been focused on the founders and early settlers of Aguascalientes, so I don't have all the information you're looking for. However, I did find the marriage record for Francisco Xavier Calvillo and María Michaela Macías (Matrimonios 1750-1755, Images 134-135 of 246) which mentions who their parents were. The link is

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-13033-120401-21?cc=1410092…

In this record, the parents of Francisco Xavier Calvillo are said to be unknown (hijo de padres no conocidos) which suggests that he may've been an illegitimate child. The parents of María Michaela Macías are listed as Juan de Santiago and María Gertrudis Gómez. Both Francisco Xavier and María Michaela are said to be "españoles" living in Aguascalientes at the time of their marriage.

I've identified five children for this couple: Joseph Santiago (b.1756), Juan Antonio Esteban (b.1759), María Francisca Telésfora (b.1770), Luisa Antonia (b.1772) and María Dionisia de los Dolores Calvillo (b.1775). Hope this helps.

BILL FIGUEROA

----- Original Message -----
From: iChristopher94526@yahoo.com
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2013 6:13 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Calvillo, Macías, Ponce, Vásquez, Garcia

Hello everyone,

My name is Christopher de Cuéllar and I'm very new to geneaology and very new to the group. I've only been doing geneaology for about a month. My father died when I was very young so I never really knew much about my ancestors. That's probably why I started becoming interested in geneaology. I'm currently in high school and am trying to accomplish as much research during the winter break as possible. Mainly, spending all my free time pulling records I can find on family search. Also, if there's anyone that could assist in occasionally translating records for me, I would really appreciate it. I have dyslexia which really hasn't been a problem for me lately, but for some reason the ancient cursive writing on marriage and baptism records gives me a problem.

I'm currently researching my ancestors the Calvillo, Macías and Ponce families from Aguascalientes and the Vásquez and Garcia families from Guadalajara, Jalisco. Right now, I'm mainly interested in Francisco Xavier Calvillo that married María Michaela Macías at El Sagrario, Aguascalientes on 24 May 1753 and their ancestors. Also, interested in Gregorio Ponce that married María Gertrudis Rangel on 6 Feb 1796 and their ancestors.

In Guadalajara, the only record I have for my Vásquez ancestor is Miguel Vasquez born 29 Sept 1896 in Guadalajara and baptised on 19 Oct 1896 at Iglesia Parroquial de Jesus, Guadalajara. On his baptism it lists his parents as Cecilio Vásquez and Flora Garcia and his paternal grandparents as Leonardo Vásquez and Susana Garcia. It lists his maternal grandparents as Sinforiano Garcia and Donaciana Vejar. I'm especially looking for information on them.

Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance."

Christopher de Cuéllar

I have had good results with it and I don't regret it but every person is going to have a different experience. Instead of using chromosome browser use a free program called Genome Mate that makes it easier to triangulate on matches by chromosome. It can be found at http://genomemate.org/

AncestryDNA.com doesn't even have a way to determine which chromosome and region you and your matches have in common. Only FTDNA and 23andme have that ability. You can see how some bloggers use both AncestryDNA and FamilyTreeDNA for finding matches and triangulating on them at http://dna-explained.com/2014/11/30/chromosome-browser-war/ and also at http://www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com/2014/12/the-folly-of-using-small-…

The ethnic makeup is in a screen called myOrigins and it does need another update. The previous update fixed some problems but created some more. Part of what they broke was the percentage of Native American because they didn't use Pima, Maya, and Colombians as reference populations for that ethnicity. 23andme is considered the best company for determining ethnicity. AncestryDNA is almost as good.

Armando

no don't. i paid $39 and i regret it. the myorigins results for my mom were weird, and most of her matches didn't have trees. also i found their chromosome browser too hard to use.

I assume when you state Sevilla it actually is Cádiz. I say that because Sevilla does not border the atlantic or Mediterranean. Cádiz was the most powerful port city in Spanish history.

Daniel

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 15, 2014, at 7:43 PM, zacatecano020@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> There are three ports in Spain that were there during XVI period:
>
> Puerto San Sebastian:
>
> http://oi60.tinypic.com/142fsp2.jpg
>
> Puerto Santander:
>
> http://oi57.tinypic.com/2ym9bm1.jpg
>
> Puerto Sevilla:
>
> http://oi58.tinypic.com/s3zkte.jpg
>
> Included are the three pictures. Most of the spanish explorers that arrived to Zacatecas were from the Basque region from "Gipuzkoa" such as Francisco Ibarra, etc.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gipuzkoa
>
> The ports of San Sebastian and Santander are located in the northern side of Spain near the Basque region. So I wonder if that is where they embarked rather than Sevilla which is at the very south side of Spain.
>

I've seen this cases of mix records, specially among the older ones, even worst, some had been indexed but just the "christening" side making it look like there is nothing else within the film, it is until one browse the complete records that we find such information. Luckily for me (if I must put it that way) I realized this the first time I ever browse a film, it was a mere coincidence but it kept me aware of it afterwards.

The sealed document is the accounting records concerning the wealth left by Don Vicente de Saldivar, captain and a miner, who apparently owed lots of money to the crown and many other people, the other people (many captains) are trying to get their payments before the authorities take them all, this type of documents were meant to be in the Spanish Archives but I guess this one never made it.

RJ Quiralta

Nice find, there it shows Nombre de Dios as the Frontier of Nueva Galicia, that place would be later on the Durango side, One of my ancestors went from there to Nochistlán, I also remember seen other similar surnames in that town, like Juaragui, de Frias, Lozano, Rdz de Santa Ana. I read before about the actual location back in the days but is the first time I see it on the map.

RJ Quiralta

It looks odd at first but if you look carefully, it is an abbreviated/stylized way of signing, the letter that looks like an A is actually a Q, with the @ in top that would (in this specific case) means UI but understood as UIA, completing the MIZQUIA name. Plus the century off, but is interesting how a misread can lead to a different but actual real name, been there myself many times.

RJ Quiralta

Thanks Katy. This is a tremendous resource! I'll be glad to help with indexing.

Thanks again.
Austin Perez

Katy, Thank You so much for your hard work and for sharing this. Does this new site have new film that was not indexed on the other site?
Thanks

I am from Nochistlan and yes, there is always in any record, especially
when written in hand challenges in reading it. Do attach the record.

*Very sincerely yours,*

*José de Jesús Legaspi*

On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 3:53 PM, Ronald Reynoso wrote:
>
> Hola Members,sorry for the molestia but I am unable to make out names .
> In Los Matrimonios de Nochistlan,Zacatecas-1736-1762 , feb. 20, 1737, Image
> # 630 se caso Salvador Carrillo and Ana de Jesus Rodriguez . Parents of
> Salvador Carrillo ,I can't make out . I think the father of the groom is
> Onofre and the mother ,I can't read it. Ana de Jesus Rodriguez I believe is
> Marcos Rodriguez and Juana Lopez de Elizalde .
> I thank you for your time
> Ronnie
>

Hello

Below is how I read it:

Salvador Carrillo hijo legitimo de Ignacio Carrillo y de Josefa Enriquez con Anna de Jesus Rodriguez hija legitima de Marcos Rodriguez y de dona Juana Lopez de Lizalde, todos espanoles y vecinos de esta jurisdiccion...fueron padrinios Felipe de Ornelas y Margarita de Ornelas

The record is located top left of image 31

Regards
Austin Perez

Hi Ronnie,

Will you post a link to the record? That helps a lot.

Rosalinda

As it turns out, Manuela's husband Christobal de Robles is brother to my ancestor, Juan.

Rosalinda

do you know if candelaria had a last name or not?

Saludos, hasta ahora que yo sepa, todavia no ha salido nada nuevo sobre Petronila de Moctezuma. Estamos todavia esperando el libro postumo de Guillermo Tovar de Teresa con la esperanza de que se mencione algo al respecto. Estoy seguro que cuando se encuentre el documento que demuestra los padres de Petronila, va a ser un gran revuelo en esta pagina, ya que muchos somos descendientes de ella y de Martin Navarro.

Saludos,

Steve in NC