Hoy noté que los registros de la iglesia de San Ignacio Cerro Gordo no están disponibles en FamilySearch. (Tal vez están allí y simplemente no los he encontrado todavía).
Gaspar de Avalos cc Luisa de Quezada y Mendoza
Alonso de Avalos cc Catalina de Orosco
Gabriel de Avalos cc Maria Quezada
Sebastian de Avalos cc Mariana de Castro
Hola prim@s,
Hi Manny, I think if i remember Juan de Malaber was the second husband of Marta Sanchez de Mendoza. But it's been a long time since I looked at these families. So when it says "su nieta" for Beatriz Gomez aka Sanchez I think they just don't know how to describe the relationship of Juan de Malaber. Technically Beatriz Sanchez/Gomez would be the step-granddaughter, if that's even a thing. Based on the multiple names Beatriz Sanchez/Gomez uses and since we know she is the actual granddaughter of Marta Sanchez de Mendoza, we can reasonable assume that her actual grandfather is Juan Sanchez de Lara. Juan de Malaber i think may be discussed in this thread:
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/24229
Danny
Danny,
I have a question about Beatriz Sanchez. If she's the granddaughter of Marta Sanchez de Mendoza, does that mean she's the daughter of Maria Sanchez? Also I was wondering if you were familiar with Francisco Sanchez de Quezada, son of Lazaro Sanchez and grandson of Maria Sanchez. If Maria Sanchez is the mother of Beatriz Sanchez then she would be the sibling of Lazaro Sanchez. So my question is where does Sanchez de Quezada come from. It appears to come from Lazaro Sanchez since Lazaro's wife's parents are known. Was Maria Sanchez married to a Quezada or descend from a Quezada? I do know one of Maria Sanchez's children uses Ornelas but where does Quezada come from?
Paige
Danny,
That’s a really good point. It reminds of what Jaime Holcombe revealed, regarding how everyone assumed that the Delgadillo’s descended from Juan de Renteria, when they descended from his wife Ysabel Calderon’s first husband, Diego Delgadillo.
Thanks,
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Manny,
I thread through this thread and was impressed with the amount of research that you have done with to expand our knowledge on this line and all others who have contributed thus far. I must state that I am related to this line on numerous lines, but do share a close tie through the Méndez de Torres of Zamora, Michoacán.
D. Baltazar de Avalos y Tovar and Da. Juana Ruiz de Aldana had another daughter named Da. Catalina de Avalos y Aldana (based on the various baptismal records she appears as madrina in Santa María de los Lagos and is listed as their daughter) who married D. Balthazar Martín-Barragán y Arias de Bedoya, probably in Zamora or Santa María de los Lagos, I still have yet to locate this record, if it exists. They had the following (so far what I have found):
1. Teresa Martín Barragán y Avalos b.- 7 June 1651 in San Martín de Zamora
2. Micaela Martín Barragán y Avalos b. - 19 Oct 1653 in San Martín de Zamora
3. Juana Martín Barragán y Avalos b. 11 Aug 1655 in San Martín de Zamora
4. José Martín Barragán y Avalos b. 14 Dec 1656 in Santa María de los Lagos
As you can see the family moved sometime between Juana and José's birth to Catalina de Avalos native town of Santa María de los Lagos, present day Lagos de Moreno. I want to draw your attention to their oldest daughter Teresa. She married my eighth great grand uncle's son, D. Diego Méndez de Torres y Ochoa Garibay de Solís, who was a "comerciante" on 27 April 1677 in Aguascalientes. The marriage record does not state Diego's parents, but through other records in León, Guanajuato, I was able to establish the identity of his parents of which I shouted for joy as I soon learned who he was. The couple had at least one daughter Da. Francisca Méndez de Torres y Martín Barragán, baptized 19 Oct 1679 in nearby León, Guanajuato.
Diego's father (my eighth granduncle) D. Diego Méndez de Torres (also Méndez de Sotomayor) y Arias de Bedoya was Alcalde Provisional de León al estado noble y su jurisdicción, until his death, by then he had already remarried and brought all his children to León, leaving the "solar familiar" of Zamora, Michoacán to take on expanded responsibilities in the Cabildo of León. As soon as the children are of age they are married into the García de León, Zúñiga y Mendoza, Vargas Machuca, Salceda Andrade, López de Lara and the Martín Barragán families. I call it very strategic marriage planning as the majority of these families were either directly or indirectly involved with the Cabildo through business or marriages. I would enjoy to further discuss the Avalos families, please email or message me on FB.
Saludos,
Daniel Méndez de Torres y Camino
Hola prim@s,
Over the summer, I finally got a chance to thoroughly read the 1657 causa criminal of Juan and Aparisio de Avalos, and boy! did I get some things wrong: Nicolas Garcia and his brother, Gaspar Garcia, were not captured, and they managed to escape. That's how they are able to appear in Huaniqueo in 1660, and later, in Lagos, where they were finally arrested. They were then extradited to San Luis Potosi; on 7 Aug 1665, Capp Juan Antonio de Pro, Alcalde Provincial de la Sta Hermandad de la Nueva Galicia, delivers Nicolas Garcia de Avalos, Gaspar y Juan de Avalos sus hermanos, y Juan Perez y Felipe de la Cruz Mulatos Libres. I lose the scent there. Gaspar de Avalos father was not among those arrested.
Hello Daniel,
Thank you very much for connecting Catalina de Avalos cc Baltasar Martin Barragan to Baltasar de Avalos cc Juana Ruiz! I had seen her and Baltasar in Zamora, and I wondered who she belonged to. This reinforces Baltasar de Avalos Tovar's & Juana Ruiz de Aldana's presence in Zamora, along with the marriage of their son, Nicolas de Avalos to Ynes Martinez Ortega, on 21 Aug 1651.
Gracias y saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Hola prim@s,
It’s been a while since I’ve found anything on our favorite gangsta family, los Malos Davalos. I found this one in the Guadalajara Protocolos; it’s a promissory note, dated 21 Oct 1637, in Villa de Lagos: Grabiel de Abalos (how he signed his name), vecino desta Villa (Lagos), as principal debtor, and Alº Davalos Ludena (how he signed his name), as his guarantor, promises to pay Esteban de Anda Altamirano 94 pesos and 4 tomines in Reales, for the same amount loaned to him.
The last time we saw Grabiel de Abalos was 1 Jan 1630, in San Matias, Pinos, when his slave, Maria Negra Adulta, was baptized (her padrinos were Sebastian Perez and Luisa, Negros Esclavos de Luis de Urdiales). If he is the same Gabriel de Avalos who married Agustina de Velasco, then he next appears on 26 Jul 1639, in San Luis Potosi, when they baptize Nicolas.
As for Alonso Davalos Ludena, I don’t know of any other Alonso de Avalos living in Villa de Lagos in 1637, other than the one married to Catarina de Orozco, and who we know was brother of Gaspar de Abalos. If it is him, “Ludena” is a new surname for this branch. I wonder if there is any link to Maria de Ludena/Luduina/Ludueña, who married Rodrigo de Ornelas y Mendoza, 26 Nov 1615, in Lagos, and who died, 19 Dec 1674, in Jalos? Does anyone know who she is? From the timeline, she could easily be a sibling of the Avalos’.
Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Hi Manny,
It's a been awhile since I looked at these families. But I thought we had all basically decided they were brothers -Gaspar, Gabriel, Alonso and others. Was I wrong? The only mention I found of Maria de Ludena is this passage I think from Rodolfo Hernandez Chavez, where Gaspar is identified as Gaspar de Avalos Ludena:
Gaspar de Avalos-Ludeña casado por 1620 con Doña Luisa de Quesada y Sánchez de Mendoza, hermana de Doña María de Quesada ó María de Mendoza; Doña Juana de Avalos, madre de Juan de Orozco que casó con María de Quesada y Alvarado, hija de Francisco de Quesada y Sánchez de Mendoza –hermano de Doña María y de Doña Luisa de Quesada-, y de su esposa Catalina de los Ángeles Alvarado; Doña Ysabel Avalos-Ludeña / “Ysabel de Orozco”, esposa de Don Sebastián Pérez de Ortega; y a caso Doña María de Ludeña, casada en Patzcuaro y, velada el 26 de Noviembre de 1615 en Lagos con Rodrigo de Órnelas y Mendoza… ¿Tal vez?, debamos de incluir como hijo de Alonso de Avalos y de Catalina de Orozco, a Francisco de Avalos, esposo de María de Espitia, quien según investigaciones de Don Jaime Holcombe procreó en Beatriz Sánchez de Lara –también conocida como Beatriz Sánchez de Carranza, Beatriz Sánchez de Mendoza ó Beatriz Gómez propietaria de una casa en la Villa de los Lagos, descrita en el padrón de 669 como “Casa de María Gómez Viuda”, donde vivía Antonia de Avalos doncella, en compañía de Bernarda Ortiz doncella, y de la “Estancia de San Nicolás de la Ciénega” en la jurisdicción de San Juan/Jalostotitlán, registrada en los padrones de 1670 como “Rancho de Beatriz Gómez”, y en los de 1672, 1673 y 1679 como “Estancia de Beatriz Gómez”,
Hi Danny,
We’ve documented that Gaspar, Juan & Alonso were brothers, Gabriel & Sebastian were brothers, and Baltasar and Juana were siblings; we know that Gaspar, Alonso, Gabriel and Sebastian and their families all had contact with each other, and that Gaspar and Gabriel appear to shadow each other in their movements between Lagos, Pinos, Armadillo and Irapuato. Also, none of their children nor grandchildren intermarried, and we’ve seen only 3 dispensations for great-grandchildren. As for being certain whether all 7 were in the same family group, we still can’t say, but they were definitely at least cousins.
Thanks for reposting Rodolfo’s piece, I had forgotten about that. I’ve been foraging through the Lagos de Moreno church records, and I’ve found something that ties into that: Rodrigo de Ornelas and Maria de Ludeña appear as padrinos for 3 baptisms in 1637, and on the partidas she is given the name “Maria de Avalos.” We already have Alonso de Avalos using “Ludeña” - I’d like to see Rodolfo’s sources, with Gabriel using that surname, as well as Ysabel de Avalos cc Sebastian Perez de Ortega.
GASPAR DE AVALOS
On 18 Dec 1664, in Lagos de Moreno, buried was Ana de Montoya española, wife of Gaspar de Avalos: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KWZD-3?i=359&wc=3JDH-P…
On 17 Nov 1665, in Jalostotitlan, buried was Beatriz de Montoya, wife of Gaspar de Avalos el Mozo. She was a resident of the estansia called Ornelas in San Juan.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-FM9T-6Z?i=24&wc=SS22-F…
There were 3 men named Gaspar, associated with these lines: Gaspar de Avalos cc Luisa de Quesada, their son, Gaspar Garcia de Avalos (b 19 Sep 1639), and Gaspar, son of Baltasar de Avalos cc Juana Ruiz de Aldana (b. 6 Jul 1636). This last one used the name “Gaspar de Aldana” in later records, and appears in the 1672 & 1673 San Juan padrones. The 1st Gaspar and his son were in Lagos de Moreno as early as May 1664, when daughter Andrea married Roque Flores. Ana de Montoya could’ve been married to either 3, and Beatriz to either of the younger ones. Anyone?
NICOLAS GARCIA DE AVALOS
Buried on 10 Dec 1665 in Lagos de Moreno was Nicolas Garcia de Avalos. If you remember, Nicolas was the oldest son of Gaspar de Avalos and Luisa de Quezada. He started using the alias “Garcia,” as early as 23 Feb 1654, when he married Ysabel del Castillo in Armadillo. I don’t know if it is an ancestral surname, though his brother, Gaspar, also used it. I was surprised to see him buried in Lagos, because the last we had heard of him was the previous Aug 1665, when he and his brothers Gaspar & Juan were extradited to San Luis Potosi, probably for those murders and robberies committed in 1656. Looks like his sentence was carried out in Lagos, since the burial record says he was “justiciado” (executed). It took 8 years, but justice finally caught up with him: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KWZK-Y?i=362&wc=3JDH-P…
NICOLAS DE RIBERA
Here’s something I had overlooked: Gaspar de Avalos & Luisa de Quezada’s daughter, Ysabel de Avalos, married Geronimo de Arroyo in 1647 in Pinos. On their 1646 IM, the first witness was Nicolas de Ribera, age 20, who said he was “primo hermano de la dicha Ysabel de Avalos.” So, either Gaspar de Avalos or Luisa de Quesada had a sibling who married a “Ribera”:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-B7RJ-4?i=34&wc=3PS9-W3…
BEATRIZ SANCHEZ AKA GOMEZ ETC
Regarding Beatriz Sanchez aka Gomez etc: on 21 Jun 1628, in Lagos de Moreno, baptized were Phelipe and Ana, both “hijos de la Yglesia,” and Antonio hijo de Alonso de Quesada cc Ysabel de Alarcon, and the padrinos for all 3 were Juan de Malaber and Beatriz Gomez “su nieta.” On 11 Jul 1628, baptized was Madalena hija de la Yglesia, her madrina was Beatriz Gomez “nieta de Marta Sanchez.”
I don’t know who Juan de Malaber was, but Marta Sanchez was married to Juan Sanchez de Lara. Could this possibly be the same Beatriz Gomez aka Beatriz Sanchez etc?
Hope you’re all well!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
I descend from Francisco Quesada and Catalina de Los Angeles (aka Catalina de Alvarado). I was wondering whether Luisa Quesada y Mendoza has been connected to this family.
Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci
Hi, I´m new over here and even though I have already read a lot of the posts in this forum I didn´t read all.
So, does anybody notice that in the baptisma-chistening certificate (I really don´t know the english name)of GASPAR DE AVALOS (Lagos 6 july 1636), son of Baltazar de Avalos and Juana de Aldana, the godmother was Isabel de Avalos, daugther of Gabriel de Avalos.
Although, this document doesn´t prove they were brothers, it definitely proves that a link between them existed.
Cheers. Daniel.
------------------
Hola, soy nuevo por acá y aunque ya leí una gran cantidad de publicaciones de este foro no logré leerlas todas.
Así que les pregunto. ¿Alguien ya se había percatado que en la Fe de bautismo de GASPAR DE ÁVALOS (lagos, 6 de julio 1636), hijo de Baltazar de Ávalos y Juana de Aldana, la madrina fue Isabel de Ávalos, la hija de Gabriel de Ávalos?
Aunque esto no prueba el parentesco entre ellos, sin duda si demuestra una relación de algún tipo entre ellos.
Saludos, Daniel.
Hi Rick,
Thanks, and great story, about your ancestor, Güera! If it were a movie, Maria Felix would play the lead…
Hola Daniel,
Sí, ya se mencionó el contacto entre Baltasar de Avalos e Isabel de Avalos, pero le agradecemos su contribución a la conversación. Los detalles son importantes!
Gracias y saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Baltazar D'Avalos Villaseñor y Espexo was baptized on 22/Jan/1653, in León, "hijo de Don Gonzalo de Avalos Villaseñor y Juana de Espejo".
This Balthazar was married to Maria Ruiz de Velasco in abt. 1679 in Ayo el Chico, Jalisco
Rick A. Ricci
Hola prim@s,
Here's the marriage record for Nicolas de Avalos Villaseñor cc Ynes Macias Ortega, 21 Aug 1651, Sagrario, Zamora, Mich:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-5T9Y-YH?mode=g&i=21&wc=3NY…
I just noticed that there were some posts that were directed to me, and that I had missed - my apologies, I'll try to respond to them, when I can.
I also have an update on Gaspar de Avalos cc Luisa de Quezada, which I'll be posting soon - stay tuned!
Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
We last saw Gaspar de Avalos and Luisa de Quezada in March 1657, living on their rancho, called "El Ojo de Muerte," near Valle de Armadillo, SLP. Their sons, Nicolas Garcia and Gaspar Garcia, along with cousins, Juan and Geronimo Aparisio de Avalos Orozco, plus another accomplice, had just been tried and executed for murder & robbery. After their deaths, the condemned were decapitated and quartered, their heads placed on poles on the 4 roads leaving San Luis, and their bodies, gibbeted where the murders took place. Within days, the heads of Juan and Aparisio de Avalos had disappeared from their poles, and authorities had gone to the rancho of Gaspar de Avalos, searching for them. Gaspar and his sons were gone, and only the women remained. And that's where we left off.
Cut to 3 years later: it's 4 Feb, 1660, and Gaspar de Avalos and Luisa de Quezada are now residents of Huaniqueo, Michoacan, where they had been living for well over a year (since 1658). Alonso Rodriguez de Montemayor, of Pachuca, has petitioned to marry their daughter, Luisa de Avalos y Quezada (confirmed 22 May 1624, Sta Maria de Lagos), but there's an impediment (my heart jumped...): Alonso Rodriguez has had a previous relationship with a cousin of Luisa's, requiring a dispensation for 2o con 3o de amistad ilicita (!!GOOOOL!!).
Now, as I was reading this document, I was super impressed with the amount of information given by the notary - on the testigos, in particular: not just their castas and ages, but also, in some cases, their occupations, or who they're married to (Ysabel de Liebana Española de 50a, casada con Juan de Torres, vnos de Huaniqueo). And then, for the number of testigos, of which there are several, including a couple of surprises. I just hoped that the dispensation gives us something new, like Gaspar's parents' names, or perhaps confirming a link to Gabriel & Sebastian de Avalos, or to Baltasar & Juana de Avalos? Or a new branch, altogether?
Well, it appears to be the latter:
“dixo conosse a dho alonzo hernandes de montemayor dos messes y a luissa de abalos desde que nasio que es su hija lexitima y que cotidianamente hastado de baxo su obediencia y amparo como donssella birtuosa y que pueden contraer el matrimonio que an tratado y conossio a juo de abalos su herno lixitimo [hermano legitimo] que mataron en este puo [pueblo, i.e. Huaniqueo] y conossio a bartolome de abalos hijo bastardo de dho Juan de abalos el qual tubo una hija llamada maria con quien dho alonso hernandes dissen tubo amistad ylicita la qual fue sobrina de dha luisa de abalos su hija porque dho bartolome de abalos fue Primo de dha su hija y la hija de dho bartolome de abalos es sobrina de dha luissa de abalos su hija y que todo lo referrido lo bido y passo como esta dho y es la berdad … “ - Declaracion del padre de la contrayente, Gaspar de Abalos, edad de 60a, lo firmo con el sr cura, 22 feb 1660 (Image 079).
Yup. Gaspar de Abalos himself. Giving an account of a brother named Juan de Avalos, whom "they had killed in Huaniqueo" (years before, according to another testigo), and who had a bastard son named Bartolome de Avalos (Mestizo), who had a daughter named Maria de Avalos, with whom Alonso Rodriguez had relations. All of the witnesses give the same account, but there are some additional snippets of info:
- Testigo Juan de Yepes Esp 50 says Juan de Avalos Difunto was married to his aunt.
- Testigo Juan Sidbensiz (or Juan Bensisio - anyone?), Esp age 24, says he's a cuñado de Luisa de Avalos, who is sister of his wife. The only daughter of Gaspar de Avalos and Luisa de Quezada that I don't have married, is Mariana de Avalos, who was baptized 04 Jul 1638, in Sagrario, SLP.
- Several of the testigos say they knew the Avalos from Lagos, with none mentioning Armadillo nor Sierra de Pinos. Of course they wouldn't!!!
- The biggest surprise (and the creepiest...), is testigo NICOLAS GARCIA, age 30, brother of the bride. But how can this be?? Nicolas Garcia de Avalos was hung, beheaded and quartered, 3 years before, in San Luis Potosi!!?? The only explanation: one of the younger siblings adopted his name, after his death. This family was all about aliases and shadows.
So, now we know that after the executions, Gaspar de Avalos and Luisa de Quezada would have collected and buried the bodies of their sons, when the authorities allowed it. They were then likely forced to leave SLP, perhaps even forfeiting whatever property they owned. They still had 2 sons, under the age of 16, and 4 daughters, all of marrying age. Gaspar de Abalos & the OMG then headed south to Huaniqueo. We've seen them in Irapuato, Gto, but this is the first time we've placed anyone from this branch in old Michoacan. And now we know that he had a brother named Juan de Avalos, who lived & died there. This gets us that much closer to the Avalos/ Tobar/ Villasenor / Cervantes etc.
Additional notes:
- Daughter Andrea de Avalos still has to marry Roque Flores, on 02 May 1664, in Lagos. Women usually lived with their parents until married, though in her case, she was at least 40 years-old (most of their 8 daughters married rather late - well after 30). But it's possible that she still lived with her parents, and that Gaspar and Luisa returned to Lagos before 1664. Que vida mas loca!
- I've located 2 men named Bartolome de Avalos, one, who was Mestizo, living in Angamacutiro and married to Catalina Gutierrez Mulata Libre, and another, who was categorized as Morisco, and who married Melchora Juana India, 25 May 1659, in Indaparapeo. Since his daughter, Maria de Avalos, was said to have had her affair with Alonso Rodriguez in 1659, our Bartolome is likely the first. It's possible they're the same person, or perhaps father and son.
- Gaspar de Abalos signed his name, revealing that he had received an education, and that he had at least a middle-class upbringing.
Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
04 Feb 1660 IM de Luisa de Avalos y Quezada, con Alonso Rodriguez de Montemayor.
"México, Michoacán, registros parroquiales y diocesanos, 1555-1996," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KGSB-TB?cc=1883388&wc=3NTX… : 20 May 2014), Morelia > Arquidiócesis de Morelia > image 72 of 1421; parroquias Católicas, Michoacan (Catholic Church parishes, Michoacan).
This new information only adds to the questions of this family but it sure is a read.
Thanks Manny for your the added information and story.
This is really great stuff Manny. This family is never boring. I just wish
we could finally find out who the parents are especially because so many of
us, including me, descend from them. Also who do you think the 2nd Nicolas
really was?
Danny C. Alonso
Hola Prim@s,
I just noticed that I made an error: Luisa de Avalos y Quezada, daughter of Gaspar de Avalos cc Luisa de Quezada, was to marry Alonso HERNANDEZ de Montemayor, and not “RODRIGUEZ de Montemayor.” He was son of Diego Hernandez and Juana de Osorio. I was just excited about discovering a new branch, I suppose, and dear Alonso seemed incidental - which he wasn't!
Hi Danny,
It’s possible Gaspar de Avalos and Luisa de Quezada named 2 of their sons, “Nicolas.” And it’s just as possible that one of their other sons adopted the name, after the first was killed. The only son I haven’t accounted for is Diego, who was baptized 1 May 1642, San Matias, Pinos.
OMG AND THE RETURN TO LAGOS
Earlier in this thread, I mentioned some documents that I found indexed at the website for Biblioteca Publica del Estado de Jalisco Juan Jose Arreola:
Archivo de la Real Audiencia Ramo Civil y Criminal: Ramo: Criminal
Año 1 1665/ Año 2 1667
Progresivo 2710, Caja 174, Exp 6
Nombre 2: DE AVALOS GASPAR, DE AVALOS JUAN, GARCIA NICOLAS, PEREZ JUAN
Lugar: LAGOS
Documentos referentes a las discrepancias entre los tribunales eclesiásticos y civiles, a causa de que el artículo de inmunidad de la iglesia no fuera respetado por el Teniente Provincial de la Hermandad de Lagos al sacar de la parroquia a Gaspar de Ávalos, Juan de Ávalos, García Nicolás y Juan Pérez, reos acusados de robo.
“Documents regarding the discrepancies between the ecclesiastical and the civil tribunals, because the article giving the Church immunity was not respected by the Teniente Provincial de la Hermandad of Lagos, when removing from the parish Gaspar de Avalos, Juan de Avalos, Nicolas Garcia and Juan Perez, inmates accused of robberies.”
When I first read that, I thought that the event spoken of happened decades before, since Nicolas Garcia was listed amongst those removed from the parish in 1665, and we know he died in 1657. But now, knowing that another son of Gaspar de Avalos used the same name, I think this happened in 1665. This makes sense, because Andrea de Avalos y Quezada married Roque Flores on 2 May 1664, and women usually lived with their parents, until they married.
So, some time between Feb 1660 and May 1664, the OMG returned to Lagos. And they apparently continued with their evil ways, even after what happened to their sons & cousins. Gaspar de Avalos was around 70, by this time, for crissake.
But more, as I reread the above description of the documents, I realize that I misread it, regarding the word "parroquia" which I misinterpreted as "parish," as in the "jurisdiction of a church." But in this case, it apparently means the "parish church," itself, where the Avalos had fled, seeking asylum. The Hermandad stormed the church, and arrested them, which is the violation spoken of.
You can't make this stuff up.
Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Dear Manny,
Congratulations on your findings. I am very appreciative of your work. The band of robbers ties in with the early history of the road being very dangerous between tepatitlan and San Juan de Los Lagos. Stories were made up that my ancestor was the head of the band because she became a bitter woman who always coverered her face after being attacked and her face scarred by a mountain lion. She had been described as a tall beauty, Güera, before the attack. After the attack she always wore a veil and avoided people. People later claimed that her son's inherited much because of what she robbed but she was rich from her parents leaving her a fortune. And she went from a young women who had everything, physical and facial beauty, intelligence, wit, and rich parents to boot, to a bitter woman who shied away from people and no longer the life of the party.
Thanks again,
Rick
JUAN BENSIS SID (CID)
I don't descend from the D'Avalos family lines that we are talking about, though I do descend from the Padilla D'Avalos.
I descend from the Villasenor and Diaz de Leon families. I found Chris's post on how the Avalos and Diaz de Leon were related. I also descend from Juan Diaz de Leon and Jacinta de Sotomayor.
Joseph Diaz de Leon (m. Antonia Delgadillo) was the son of Juan Diaz de Leon and Jacinta Martinez de Sotomayor. Chris has Jose Diaz de Leon's brother Antonio Diaz de Leon as an ancestor.
Rick A. Ricci
Manny,
thank you. i didnt see that. whats a predio rustco mean? who do you think is the parents of Baltasar de Abalos Tobar. i know you probly don't know officially but who fits best.
Danny C. Alonso
Manny,
i had another question. i know Gaspar and Alonso are brothers but have you linked these people to my ancestor Gabriel Avalos.
Danny C. Alonso
Rick, thanks for posting the information regarding the Villaseñor.
Manny, do you have the link to the dispensa for Nicolas Castañeda and Maria Gomez?
Chris
Hola a todos:
Sobre la relación entre las líneas de los Ávalos entre sí, probablemente éstas ya existían desde España, pues el apellido Ávalos constiuye una de las ramas de la casa, solar y divisa Ramírez de la Piscina, desde 1537 hasta ahora la rama Ávalos ha participado en la custodia de la divisa. Actualmente la tiene el Marqués de Legarda como sucesor de la casa de Ábalos.
Existe una relación geográfica puesto que la Iglesia de Santa María de la Piscina se encuentra próxima " a media legua" del poblado de Ábalos.
En el libro La Divisa, solar y Casa Real de la Piscina, de Jaime Salazar y Acha et al,(cuya muestra está en GoogleBooks) se puede leer en la página 14 se dice que en 1534 el Doctor Diego Ramírez de la Piscina, historiador de Navarra conocido como Diego Ramírez de Ávalos ganó el pleito contra los usurpadores de la Divisa ante la Real Chancillería de Valladolid.
Mi abuelo materno me informó que nuestra rama (Ramírez de Coy) proviene del tronco Ramírez de la Piscina al igual que los Cos, los Ávalos, los Ponce. Ésta información la he ido corroborando poco a poco, puesto que de la descendencia de los Ramírez de la Piscina hay varias versiones.
Saludos
Marcelina Macías
Hello Rick,
Thank you! This is all great info. From timelines and the combination of surnames, I'd say the Avalos OMG descend from one of the offspring of Diego de Villasenor Tobar and Geronima de Avalos.
MATHIAS GOMEZ DE SOTOMAYOR CC YSABEL RUIZ DE VILLASENOR
Re: Ysabel Ruiz de Villasenor, I descend from her second marriage, to the mysterious Francisco Sanchez de la Mejorada. Ysabel and Francisco owned Guadalupe de Los Pozos, in Sierra de Pinos, which they came into possession of, around 1708. I don't know if her first husband, Mathias Gomez de Sotomayor, owned any property, he drops off the map around 1692.
LUIS DE AVALOS CC GERTRUDIS PONCE
I mentioned Luis de Avalos cc Gertrudis Ponce, 25 Feb 1645, San Matias, Pinos; I thought he might be a possible son of Gabriel de Avalos and Maria Quesada, but he and Gertrudis Ponce were Mestizos. Gabriel de Avalos and Maria Quesada did baptize Joseph de Avalos Quesada, 28 Dec 1625, San Matias, Pinos; his padrino was Gines Carrion, and he was confirmed on 24 Jan 1627, padrino Juan Gutierrez.
DIEGO DE AVALOS CC GERONIMA SALDANA
I found the 24 Mar 1666 IM for Nicolas Carrillo de Figueroa and Juana de Avalos; Juana de Avalos was said to be born in Sierra de Pinos, she was daughter of Diego de Avalos and Geronima Saldana. I don't know who this Diego de Avalos is, but from the location and timeline, he's either a son of Gaspar or Gabriel de Avalos: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KL94-K3?i=261&wc=3NT6-DP8
Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Hola Marcelina y Rick,
With all of this talk of Davalos, Villaseñor, Orosco y Cervantes; I came upon this capellania regarding the Villalobos (Augustin Villalobos; Diego Villalobos Clerigo, nephew of Antonio Villalobos, others) img78:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-2KS9-HZ?i=77&wc=3NTL-N3D
What interested me (and what might interest you) is img152: Francisco Antonio Peredo, en nombre de Maria Magdalena Davalos Bracamonte Orosco y Cervantes, Viuda del Capitan Pedro Antonio Trebuesto(?) Cavallero, hija legitima del Conde Don Pedro Alonso Davalos Bracamonte, del Orden de Santiago, Conde de Miravalle cc Condesa Doña Francisca Antonia de Orosco y Cervantes (hija legitima de Manuel Orosco y Cervantes, hijo de Mariana de Villalobos). The date is 30 May 1740, I believe.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-2KS9-SL?i=151&wc=3NTL-N3D
I just thought I'd post this for your records, as there are a lot of relationships defined in this document, and perhaps it can be of use to you.
Gracias y saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Diego Villasenor-Tovar has a son named Francisco who marries Mariana Villalobos.
Francisco Villaseñor and Mariana Villalobos are the parents of Manuel Villasenor.
Manuel Villaseñor marries Teresa de Ribadeneira and they have a daughter named Francisca Antonia Villaseñor.
Francisca Villaseñor married Pedro Alonso D'Avalos Bracamonte
R.A. Ricci
Mr. Ricci,
do you know which of these other Villasenors actually came to our area like Aguascalientes and Jalisco
Danny C. Alonso
Dear manny,
I was so caught up in helping research the Avalos that I did not pay close attention to what may be the big clue. You wrote " Ysabel Ruiz de Villaseñor, who married first to Matias Gomez de Sotomayor". Did you descend from Mathias or from the second husband. When researching the Avalos I came across some property that the Avalos ancestors used to used to own. The property is said to have passed down many generations to the de Sotomayor family. I think it said Garcia de Sotomayor family so it might not be the same family.
I just pulled out my copy of "retonos" by Marian Gonzalez Leal.
I did not read it first because I did not want it to influence my research. I'm glad that I didn't. My research corroborates his theories. There were two separate Avalos families yet both of them left descendants in los altos de Jalisco. Both of the Avalos(D'Avalos ) families intermarried with many of the same families. I have posted examples of the two Avalos families marrying into the Villasenor family.
Mariano does not give these lines that I have posted. these lines complement his work and validate his theories.
However, even if in Mexico they are two distinct lines, they are very interconnected so I believe that further research in Spain would show that these two Avalos lines come from the same family. It would be a big surprise if they weren't the same family because it would be to big a coincidence with all that they have in common such as who they marry and what social circles they ran in. They ran together. At least the first generations in Nuva Galicia.
R.A.Ricci
Dear Manny,
I want to thank you again for seeking out and sharing these stories. The stories I hear about our ancestors give me a boost of energy to get back to doing more research. Even though I don't descend from the Avalos, that I know of, it was a true joy to hear the stories about the family. I am related through the Villasenor and Cervantes lines.
Thanks again,
Rick A. Ricci
There is another Villaseñor D'Avalos connection that also has a Boccanegra connection.
Alonso de Avalos Velasco married Maria Delgadillo. Their daughter, Maria D'Avalos Delgadillo (aka Verdugo) married Diego Boccanegra, son of Juan Gutierrez de Boccnegra and Guiomar de Villaseñor y Cervantes
Guiomar de Andrada is the daughter of Conquistador Juan de Villaseñor and Catalina Cervantes.
R.A. Ricci
Here is another de Avalos connection to the Villaseñor.
Gonzalo de Villasenor married to Aldonza Avalos e Hijar.
Gonzalo de Villasenor y Zuñiga and Aldonsa Avalos are this same couple.
Gonzalo is the son of Juan de Villasenor Tovar y Orosco,(encomendero de Guango) and Catarina Corona
Juan de Villasenor Tovar y Orosco,(encomendero de Guango) Is the son of Conquistador de Nueva España Juan de Villaseñor-Tovar y Orosco and Catarina Cervantes y Andrada
Conquistador de Nueva España Juan de Villaseñor-Tovar Orosco is the son of Diego de Burgos Villaseño and Isabel Orosco
Aldonza d' Avalos e Hijar is the daughter of Diego Lopez de Saavedra and Francisca Fernandez de Hijar
Diego Lopez de Saavedra is the son of Alonso D' Avalos Saavedra and Maria Delgadillo
Diego Lopez de Saavedra is the son of Diego Lopez de Saavedra and Maria Verdugo
Maria Delgadillo is the daughter of Francisco Delgadillo and Isabel de Avalos
Francisca Fernandez de Hijar is the daughter of Alfonso de Bracamonte and Beatriz de Fernandez de Hijar
Beatriz de Fernandez de Hijar is the daughter of Juan Fernandez de Hijar and Maria Carvajal
Juan Fernanadez de Hijar is the son of Diego Fernandez de Hijar
Alfonso de Bracamonte is the son of Alvaro Bracamonte and Beatriz Alvarado Bracamonte
Aldonsa De Abalos
Gender Female
Husband Gonsalo De Villasenor Y Suniga
Daughter Teresa Villasenor Abalos
Name Teresa Villasenor Abalos
Gender Female
Christening Date 12 Aug 1654
Christening Place SAN FRANCISCO,ANGAMACUTIRO DE LA UNION,MICHOACAN,MEXICO
Father's Name Gonsalo De Villasenor Y Suniga
Mother's Name Aldonsa De Abalos
CITING THIS RECORD
"México bautismos, 1560-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NT4B-FY7 : 12 December 2014), Aldonsa De Abalos in entry for Teresa Villasenor Abalos, 12 Aug 1654; citing SAN FRANCISCO,ANGAMACUTIRO DE LA UNION,MICHOACAN,MEXICO, reference ; FHL microfilm 608,775.
R.A. Ricci
Manny,
this is pretty exciting. I think from the names these people use they have to come from either Gonzalo de Villasenor and Aldonza de Avalos Hijar or Diego de Villasenor and Geronima de Avalos. I just made a second connection to the Avalos Villasenor family the day before July 4th, so I'm really excited by this news. i already come from Ysabel de Avalos, daughter of Gabriel de Avalos and Maria de Quesada. and then the other day i connected throug the Diaz de Leons to Juana de Avalos/Villasenor. http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/De_Villaseñor-17
i think it's the same person Cris was asking about earlier on the thread. i kinda thought the Gonsalo de Villasenor and Aldonza de Avalos hijar couple made sense cause a lot of them use Avalos and it seems that people use the most prestigious name and it doesnt seem like many families are more prestigious than the Villasenor family except maybe the Avalos de Hijar familiy. but, i'm really curious about any new information about these people.
Danny C. Alonso
I took a look at the posts and realized that I had left out a generation.
Gonzalo Villaseñor y Zuniga is the son Gonzalo Villaseñor Cervantes and Maria Zuñiga
So the line should read:
Gonzalo de Villasenor married to Aldonza Avalos e Hijar.
Gonzalo de Villasenor y Zuñiga and Aldonsa Avalos are this same couple.
//////// added line that I had left out by mistake
Gonzalo Villaseñor y Zuniga is the son Gonzalo Villaseñor Cervantes and Maria Zuñiga
I do not have Maria Zuñiga's parents.
//////////
Gonzalo is the son of Juan de Villasenor Tovar y Orosco,(encomendero de Guango) and Catarina Corona
Juan de Villasenor Tovar y Orosco,(encomendero de Guango) Is the son of Conquistador de Nueva España Juan de Villaseñor-Tovar y Orosco and Catarina Cervantes y Andrada
Conquistador de Nueva España Juan de Villaseñor-Tovar Orosco is the son of Diego de Burgos Villaseño and Isabel Orosco
Aldonza d' Avalos e Hijar is the daughter of Diego Lopez de Saavedra and Francisca Fernandez de Hijar
Diego Lopez de Saavedra is the son of Alonso D' Avalos Saavedra and Maria Delgadillo
Diego Lopez de Saavedra is the son of Diego Lopez de Saavedra and Maria Verdugo
Maria Delgadillo is the daughter of Francisco Delgadillo and Isabel de Avalos
Francisca Fernandez de Hijar is the daughter of Alfonso de Bracamonte and Beatriz de Fernandez de Hijar
Beatriz de Fernandez de Hijar is the daughter of Juan Fernandez de Hijar and Maria Carvajal
Juan Fernanadez de Hijar is the son of Diego Fernandez de Hijar
Alfonso de Bracamonte is the son of Alvaro Bracamonte and Beatriz Alvarado Bracamonte
Aldonsa De Abalos
Gender Female
Husband Gonsalo De Villasenor Y Suniga
Daughter Teresa Villasenor Abalos
Name Teresa Villasenor Abalos
Gender Female
Christening Date 12 Aug 1654
Christening Place SAN FRANCISCO,ANGAMACUTIRO DE LA UNION,MICHOACAN,MEXICO
Father's Name Gonsalo De Villasenor Y Suniga
Mother's Name Aldonsa De Abalos
CITING THIS RECORD
"México bautismos, 1560-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NT4B-FY7 : 12 December 2014), Aldonsa De Abalos in entry for Teresa Villasenor Abalos, 12 Aug 1654; citing SAN FRANCISCO,ANGAMACUTIRO DE LA UNION,MICHOACAN,MEXICO, reference ; FHL microfilm 608,775.
I am sorry for leaving out the generation, I should triple check what I type before hitting send.
R.A. Ricci
Mr. Ricci,
Do you know who the parents are of Nicolas de Avalos y Villasenor are that's married to Ynes de Bocanegra. he was mentioned earlier on this thread
Danny C. Alonso
Hi Danny,
Nicolas de Avalos Villaseñor was son of Baltasar de Avalos Tobar and "Lucina" Ruiz de Aldana, according to the earlier post by Carlos Peredo (thank you, Carlos!). He was born in Lagos. Ines Macias Ortega was daughter of Francisco Macias Valades and Jacinta de Ortega, of Aguascalientes (she made her confirmation of 04 Jun 1634, Asuncion de Maria, Ags). They were married 25 Aug 1641, in Zamora, Michoacan, the source is "Familias y Casas de la Vieja Valladolid," and "Lucina" is likely a typo, or it might a second name for Juana Ruiz de Aldana.
Ines Macias de Ortega, with power of attorney of Nicolas de Avalos Villaseñor, sold a "predio rustico" in Aguascalientes, to Francisco Muñoz de Hermosillo, on 04 Jun 1689. This record can be found at the Aguascalientes Acervos Coloniales website.
This is the first time I've seen a child of Baltasar de Avalos using "Villaseñor."
Saludos,
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Dear Manny,
What do you think of the possibility that Baltazar descends from this Nicolas Villaseñor D'Avalos?
I know of a Nicolas Villaseñor D'Avalos, but I don't know who he was married to.
Nicolas Villaseñor-Tovar D'Avalos y de la Torre is the son of Diego Villaseñor and Jerónima de la Torre (born abt.1623)
Diego is the son of Diego Villaseñor-Tovar and Jerónima D'Avalos
I already posted Diego and Jerónima 's ancestry.
Rick A. Ricci
Mr. Ricci and Manny,
I found this about the Villasenors and Cervantes and other families like Perez de Bocanegra:
http://www.museocjv.com/cedros/Los de Villasenor.pdf
http://www.bisabuelos.com/mex/cervantes.html
also, Manny have you connected Gaspar and Alonso to Gabriel de Avalos
Manny, you also mentioned that you have a person that uses Ruiz de Villasenor, i just found a person that uses Ruiz de Avalos here:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-YM9G-32
Danny C. Alonso
Dear Danny,
Even if you already have a lot of information, it is always a good practice to look at new sources that someone provides to see if you can find additional puzzle pieces. A source that you provided gave me such a gem. For Diego de Villaseñor y Cervantes I had only "Mariana Zuñiga" as her name. Your source says that her name is Mariana Zuñiga Villasagra.
Thank you,
Rick A. Ricci
Manny, Danny and Rick,
I've begun linking these families on Wikitree. It will probably take me a few days to add all the people Manny gave on this thread, but since several people descend from the Avalos, Villasenor and Tovar families, I think it will make it easier to find a connection. I've also linked Sebastian, Gaspar, Gabriel and Alonso as siblings. Here is Sebastian and from him you can link to the others. I think it's important to help in locating the origin of the Avalos Villasenor.
http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/De_%C3%81valos-128
Chris
p.s. Danny, Thanks for that marriage of Simon Oviedo, I did not have that in my records.
Hola prim@s,
I’m still sorting through what I have on alteña families using “Avalos Villaseñor”:
Bernardino de Avalos and Joseph Perez de Bocanegra were married 26 Apr 1664, Nuestra Senora de Guanajuato, Gto. Parents aren’t named, only that he’s from Jalostotitlan, and she’s from Gto. They likely moved back to Los Altos; most of the Avalos couples issued dispensations in San Juan and Mascota are related to this couple.
From various dispensations, we know they had two children:
1. Maria de Avalos y Bocanegra cc Juan Fernando Cordero
2. Joseph Bernardino de Avalos cc Paula Quezada.
Also, Bernardino de Avalos y Villasenor had 2 sisters:
1. Ysabel de Avalos, who was mother of Miguel de Avalos y Villasenor cc Maria Vasquez de Aviles (or Avila).
2. Augustina de Avalos, who had a daughter named Juana Gomez.
I don’t know who their spouses were. These 3 siblings were born roughly 1640-1650. I think they’re grandchildren of Baltasar de Avalos and Juana Ruiz, but only because the other Avalos left Los Altos. Does anybody know who they are?
The aforementioned Miguel de Avalos y Villasenor cc Maria Vasquez de Aviles (or Avila) aka Maria Gutierrez, had two sons:
1. Miguel de Avalos y Villasenor cc Catalina Cordero-Avalos, dispensed at 3o grado, 8 Mar 1713, San Juan.
2. Juan Bautista de Avalos m1. Luisa de Limon Quezada, (daughter of Alonso Quezada cc Felipa Limon y Ortiz) m2. Maria Josefa de Aguirre y Paz (daughter of Lorenza Aguirre cc Maria de la Paz).
Hi Danny,
No, I haven’t found any hard documentation that links Gaspar and Gabriel as brothers, just my hypothesis, that I laid out earlier in this thread. It’s hard to say who their parents are: you’ve narrowed it down as I have, but then, Rick has shared a lot of new info, which I still need to process. Thank you, Rick, this is all super helpful!
Here’s the Nicolas Castaneda cc Maria Gomez dispensa:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-XW39-LV?i=489&wc=3J4Z-2NL
The name given for Maria Gomez’s great-grandfather is incorrect, he wasn’t Baltasar de Avalos, but Sebastian de Avalos:
Sebastian de Avalos cc Mariana de Castro
Augustin de Avalos cc Magdalena Ruiz
Ysabel Ruiz de Villasenor cc Mathias Gomez
Maria Gomez y Ruiz cc Nicolas de Castaneda
Question: Nicolas de Castaneda was son of Tomasa Carrion, who I have as daughter of Capitan Antonio Carrion; Antonio Carrion married twice, to Francisca Rodriguez del Alamo, and then to Maria de San Jose de Asa y Oropesa. Which one is Tomasa’s mother?
In his 10 Dec 1700 IM for his second marriage, Antonio Carrion’s mother’s name is given as “Ysabel de Alarcon Villasenor”:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-BL3F-C?i=101&wc=3PS3-HZS
We know she was daughter of Gabriel de Avalos and Maria de Quezada. I’ve never seen “Alarcon” associated with the Avalos OMG, so I originally thought this was a typo (unless it originates with the Quezada?). But after learning what we’ve learned about the Avalos OMG, and knowing how some family members used aliases, “Alarcon” might have been a surname Antonio pulled out of the air. Either way, if it was purposeful, it’s interesting how “Avalos” was still poison in Pinos, and 50 years after Gaspar [and Gabriel] were run out of town! Chris - that might explain why Lugarda used "Villasenor."
I’ll reply to other inquiries and comments when I get a chance.
Gracias y saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Your welcome Manny and Chris,
I was trying to be helpful without any serious thought that I would be adding or changing information in my tree. It seems that I am being rewarded for helping out. There may be a change in my Villaseñor Lomelin line because of this research.
I have been digging deeper into the Villaseñor and D'Avalos connection. I found some interesting information on the Villaseñor family. This is from a secondary source but the author provides primary sources that I need to go back and check. There is a big implication for my family tree if this information is correct.
I had been researching the Villaseñor and Avalos connection without being a descendant of the Avalos line. I descend from the Villaseñor Lomelin family. In my research of the Avalos and Villaseñor I found that The web of the Avalos and Villaseñor is providing new information that is a little different than some of the information on the Villaseñor that we have taken for granted because genealogists from a long time ago had stated that so and so was the daughter of "Fulano". If this new information is correct, then my ancestor is not the great granddaughter of Luis (Luciano) Lomelin(i) and Maria del Olmo. This new information adds another generation so she is a great great granddaughter of Luis (Luciano) Lomelin(i) and Maria del Olmo. It also adds another generation in my Villaseñor line. I need time to look up all the primary sources to see if this is true. This is going to take some time. It may also ruffle some feathers because two prominent genealogists have different information in their books that many people, myself included, had taken as fact.
If this new information is true then I descend from a second wife of a Villaseñor after his first wife D'Avalos dies, and I am even more closely related to the D'Avalos Villaseñors. Like you said, there is a lot of information to be processed. One D'Avalos and Villaseñor line intermarried for four generations before finally marrying outside of the family.
R.A.Ricci
Retired NFL All -Pro Quarterback Jeff Garcia descends from Bernardino de Avalos and Josepha Perez de .Boccanegra.
Rick A. Ricci
Source Mygenes2000
Mariana de Zúñiga y Villasirga's parents are Don Alonso de Zúñiga y Doña Isabel de Villasirga, according to Fr. Gabriel de Ibarrola.
Dear Carlos,
Thank you for sharing Mariana de Zuñiga's parents, Alonso de Zuñiga and Isabel de Villasagra.
There is a slight difference in the spelling Villasagra/Villasirga. Does Fr. Gabriel de Ibarrola provide any sources that we can use for leads and the correct spelling?
Thanks again,
Rick A. Ricci
Mr. Ricci,
here is a story about a convent in Villalcázar de Sirga which was probly combine to make Villasirga. they also mention a Mariana de Zuniga, not sure if its the same or differnet generation, but probly a relative for sure.
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convento_de_las_Descalzas_Reales_(Vallado…
Danny C. Alonso
The original name of Villalcazar de Sirga was Villasirga as it can be easily found.
Thank you again Carlos for providing the information on Marianas parents.
Rick A. Ricci
Manny,
you mention that the Alarcon might come from the Quesada's. Here is an Alonso de Quesada married to a Doña Ysabel de Alarcon. they arent old enough to be the other ysabel Villaseñor Alarcons grandparents, but, since these people kept intermarying it at least shows a quesada connection to the alarcons.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KW83-D
also, i was looking for other Avalos and i think this Alonso de Avalos was the first Avalos here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=1fdkscN1Uj0C&pg=PA303&dq=Alonso+de+Av…
it says he came here with five Avalos brothers, cousins to Cortes
This books calls him Alonso de Avalos Savedra and gives his parents Pedro Lopez de Saavedra and Isabel Alvarez Rangel. Lopez de Saavedra was also the parents of Aldonza de Avalos de Hijar that married Gonzalo de Villasenor, so there's another connection between these famileis. I think all the Avalos and villasenor share common people.
https://books.google.com/books?id=jWjUBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT130&dq=Alonso+de+Av…
then this book talks about other Avalos and their connection to the Bracamonte family and their coming to our Nueva Galicia area.
https://books.google.com/books?id=9Fv5dGucHw8C&pg=PA95&dq=Alonso+de+Ava…
Danny C. Alonso
Manny,
do you know who this Miguel de Ávalos is? or his mother Isabel de Ávalos? Or who she was married to?
http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/De_Ávalos-58
Danny C. Alonso
Hi Danny,
It's probable that the Alonso de Quesada you mention, husband of Ysabel de Alarcón, is a sibling of Luisa and María de Quesada, that are married to the two Ávalos. All three Quesada's are probably the children of the Alonso de Quesada y Puga, alférez real and Juana Bautista Hernández de Arellano that Manny mentioned earlier.
Paige
Paige i agree with you. thats why i added the alferez real Alonso de Quesada and Juana Baptista Hernades de arellano to the Wikitree and started adding the quesada ancestors, in case we connect our Quesada's to them. The Quesada's connects to the king of portugal through the Venegas family, you can see here
http://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/de Quezada-Family-Tree-100
Danny C. Alonso
Jeronima d' Avalos is the daughter of Gonzalo Avalos and Juana Jerez Gomez
Juana Jerez Gomez is the daughter of Hernan Gomez de Jerez and Ana Rodriguez de Jerez
By finding that Jerónima is the daughter of Gonzalo Avalos, we have proven part of the theory stated by Mariano Gonzalez Leal to be true.
R.A.Ricci
Agustin Iturbide, Miguel Hidalgo, and Morelos were all related through the Villaseñor. Agustin Iturbide Arramburu descends from the Villasenor/D'Avalos line.
Juan Villaseñor y Orozco And Catalina Cervantes de Lara y Andrada had at least eight children.
De este matrimonio se conocen 8 hijos (5 varones y 3 mujeres)
Juan de Villaseñor, son of Juan Villaseñor and Catalina Cervantes and is married to Catalina Corona,
José María Morelos y Pavón descends from Juan de Villaseñor and Catalina Corona
Miguel Hidalgo Costilla descends from Francisco de Orozco Tovar y Cervantes and Leonisia de Gasca y Reus
, Diego de Villaseñor Cervantes de Lara and Gerónima de Ávalos y Gómez are ancestors of the Iturbide Arramburu.
R.A.Ricci
Hi Manny,
Unfortunately, I don't have any information on these families and haven't really done too much research since starting school, but, I do descend from Gabriel de Avalos and Maria de Mendoza/Quezada who are my 11th great grandparents. I do agree with your theory that Gaspar, Gabriel, Alonso, and Sebastian are brothers. I'm not sure about Baltasar, but it makes sense he might be too. I'm curious though, I have an Avalos that I haven't found parents for and am wondering if in your research you've come across a Juana de Avalos aka Juana de Villasenor. I'm estimating she was born sometime between 1650 and 1670. She was married to Francisco de Calderon. Their daughter Leogarda de Villasenor aka Leogarda de Calderon married Joseph Diaz de Leon aka Joseph Diaz de Sotomayor in 1709.
Chris
Chris,
Im related to Gabriel de Avalos and Maria de Quezada too. which of their children are you related to.
Danny C. Alonso
Gaspar de Avalos KLQH-JG8 (ID for Familysearch.org) cc Luisa de Quezada y Mendoza
one of the children Nicolas is named Garcia de Avalos (?) one of the children Juan is born in Irapuato, Gto.
Alonso de Avalos MJRW-6VR cc Catalina de Orosco
Gabriel de Avalos LHTX-XTH cc Maria Quezada (m:26 NOV 1613 Santa Ma de los Lagos)
Sebastian de Avalos K87F-92K - cc Mariana de Castro
you probably have all this information. I worked on it in 2015 but somehow lost my way to others. Sebastian is my 9th greatgrandfather. I have him as Sebastian Balthazar.
A lot of records in San Luis Potosi, are not in Familysearch. I have been creating records from SLP, SLP (la cuidad), Mexico. If you need help just let me know.
Hi Simona,
Yes, I have those. I have a lot on these four Avalos, which I will post this weekend.
How do you descend from Sebastian de Avalos? He's my g8, I descend from his son, Augustin de Avalos cc Magdalena Ruiz, then, their daughter, Ysabel Ruiz de Villasenor, and her 2nd marriage to Francisco Sanchez de la Mejorada.
And yes, SLP Sagrario has not been indexed. Thank you for your offer, but I too have been dredging the same archives, logging baptisms and padrinos. I have pages of names...
Gracias y Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Sebastian de Avalos was an arriero (muleteer), and they lived in Pozos, SLP. I have them with eight children:
1. Salvador de Avalos Castro, b. 08 Nov 1638, Sagrario SLP.
2. Augustin de Avalos Castro, b. 01 Oct 1640, San Francisco de Pozos, SLP; m. Magdalena Ruiz-Camarillo, 20 Mar 1661, San Francisco de Pozos, SLP.
3. Francisca de Avalos Castro, b. 19 Oct 1642, San Francisco de Pozos, SLP.
4. Geronima de Avalos Castro, b. 24 Oct 1644, San Francisco de Pozos, SLP; m. Manuel de Luna, 10 Apr 1663, San Francisco de Pozos, SLP.
5. Maria de Avalos Castro, b. 24 Mar 1647, San Francisco de Pozos, SLP.
6. Josepha de Avalos Gatica, b. 31 May 1649, Sagrario, SLP.
7. Juan de Avalos, d. 01 Nov 1681, Sagrario, SLP.
8. Sebastian de Avalos Castro, b. 13 Feb 1655, San Francisco de Pozos, SLP.
Sebastian de Avalos died and was buried 11 May 1658, in San Francisco de Pozos, SLP. No testo por no tener de que.
I don’t have Sebastian’s nor Mariana’s ancestry, but from the 09 Jun 1712 dispensa for Nicolas Castaneda and Maria Gomez in Pinos, Zac, we know that Sebastian was brother of Gabriel de Avalos cc Maria Quezada. The testigos in this dispensa mistakenly call him “Baltasar de Avalos,” but as far as I know, he never used “Baltasar.” My guess is that the testigos confused his with Baltasar de Avalos of Lagos, who married Juana Ruiz, and who might be his brother.
On 19 Sep 1639, in Pozos SLP, Sebastian and Mariana were padrinos for Gaspar, son of Gaspar de Avalos and Luisa Quezada, revealing a connection between these two.
I descend from their granddaughter, Ysabel de Avalos, who changed her name to Ysabel Ruiz de Villaseñor, after she married in 1683. I haven’t seen any of her other family members using this surname, but I have seen “De Avalos Villaseñor,” used by Gabriel de Avalos’ daughter, Ysabel de Avalos Villaseñor, who married Diego Carrion. “de Avalos Villaseñor” appears in parts of SLP, Guanajuato and in Aguascalientes, though I don’t know how and if they’re linked.
Members of the family would use the compound surname “Garcia de Avalos,” which I haven’t seen used by any of the other lines.
I have Gaspar and Luisa with twelve children:
a. Petrona de Avalos Quezada, c. 22 May 1624, Santa Maria de Lagos, Jal; likely the same who married Diego del Castillo, of Armadillo, SLP.
b. Andrea de Avalos Quezada, c. 22 May 1624, Santa Maria de Lagos, Jal.
c. Luisa de Avalos Quezada, c. 22 May 1624, Santa Maria de Lagos, Jal.
d. Maria de Avalos Quezada, c. 22 May 1624, Santa Maria de Lagos, Jal, m. Luis del Castillo, 06 Feb 1654, Santa Isabel, Armadillo, SLP.
e. Nicolas Garcia de Avalos Quezada, c. 22 May 1624, Santa Maria de Lagos, Jal; d. 28 Mar 1657, Sagrario, SLP; m. Ysabel del Castillo, 23 Feb 1654, Santa Isabel, Armadillo, SLP.
f. Catalina de Avalos Quezada, d. 09 Oct 1651, San Matias, Pinos, Zac; m. Tomas de Carrion, 01 May 1642, San Matias, Pinos, Zac.
g. Ysabel de Avalos Quezada, m. Geronimo de Arroyo, 7 Dec 1646, San Matias, Pinos, Zac.
h. Juana de Avalos Quezada, m. Bartolome del Castillo, 03 Aug 1654, Santa Isabel, Armadillo, SLP.
i. Mariana de Avalos Quezada, b. 04 Jul 1638, in Sagrario, San Luis Potosi (vecinos de Lagos).
j. Gaspar Garcia de Avalos Quezada, b. 19 Sep 1639, San Francisco de Pozos, SLP (padrinos Sebastian de Avalos and Mariana de Castro); d. 28 Mar 1657, Sagrario, SLP.
k. Diego de Avalos Quezada, b. 01 May 1642, San Matias, Pinos, Zac. Padrinos Diego Carrion e Ysabel de Avalos su mujer (daughter of Gabriel de Avalos & Maria Quezada).
l. Juan de Avalos Quezada, b. 01 Mar 1644, Santa Isabel, Irapuato, Gto.
Gaspar and Luisa confirmed 5 children in 1624, in Lagos, so they were likely married around 1612-1613, also in Lagos. As can be seen, Gaspar and Luisa moved around a lot: during the 1640’s, they lived in Sierra de Pinos, off and on, also spending some time in far-off Irapuato, Gto. Around 1651, they would move to Armadillo, SLP.
I recently found documentation confirming Gaspar de Avalos as the brother of Alonso de Avalos cc Catarina de Orosco. Gaspar de Avalos also had contact with Sebastian de Avalos, as well as with Ysabel de Avalos, daughter of Gabriel de Avalos and Maria Quezada. I think it likely that Luisa Quezada is the sister of Maria Quezada, and that they married the brothers around the same time, and in Lagos.
Luisa Avalos hija de Gaspar y Luisa Quezada caso en Guaniqueo en febrero de 1660 , con Alonso Hernandez de Motemayor , en la dispensas matrimoniales dice que el dicho Alonso tuvo comunicación ilicita con Juana Avalos hija de Bartolome de Avalos este a su vez hijo de Juan de Avalos hermano del dicho Gaspar padre de Luisa , con esto amplia a 5 hermanos Avalos contando a Gaspar
Sebastian de Avalos + Mariana de Castro
Augustine de Avalos y Magdalena Ruiz Camarillo
Mathias Gomes Sotomayor +Ysabel Avalos (Ysabel matched with ur info and others on ancestry)
Joseph Gomes +Maria Francisca Cardenas (I did not continue on Familysearch gave up)
Maria Rita Gomez de Ruelas +Julian Delgado Gallegos
This is what I have in my line.
I have Alonso de Avalos and Catalina de Orosco with ten children:
a. Francisco de Avalos Orosco, c. 22 May 1624, Santa Maria de Lagos, Jal; m. Menosa Melendez.
b. Maria de Avalos Orosco, c. 22 May 1624, Santa Maria de Lagos, Jal.
c. Juana de Avalos Orosco, c. 22 May 1624, Santa Maria de Lagos, Jal
d. Leonor de Avalos Orosco, c. 22 May 1624, Santa Maria de Lagos, Jal
e. Joseph de Avalos Orosco, b. 1625, Santa Maria de Lagos, Jal.
f. Alonso de Avalos Orosco, b. 05 Aug 1628, Santa Maria de Lagos, Jal.
g. Nicolas de Avalos Orosco, b. 1629, Santa Maria de Lagos, Jal.
h. Juan de Avalos Orosco, b. 1634, Santa Maria de Lagos, Jal; d. 28 Mar 1657, San Luis Potosi.
i. Catalina de Orosco, b. 1635, Santa Maria de Lagos, Jal.
j. Geronimo Aparisio de Avalos Orosco, b. 1637, Santa Maria de Lagos, Jal; d. 28 Mar 1657, San Luis Potosi.
Four of their children were confirmed in 1624, so Alonso and Catalina were probably married around 1614. This family group appears in the 1649 Padron for Jalostotitlan, living on their estancia 5 leagues from town. Living with them were their children, Joseph, Nicolas, Juan, Catalina, Aparisio and Francisco, and Francisco’s wife, Menosa Melendez.
Around 1651, this family would move to the jurisdiction of Armadillo, SLP; they owned a ranch called “El Ojo de Bague,” located in Laguna de Santo Domingo, between Armadillo and Rio Verde, on el camino de Guasteca. Alonso de Avalos died before Feb 1657.
This is the couple I have the least information on. We know they were married (velados) 26 Nov 1613, Santa Maria de Lagos, Jal. Maria Quezada is likely a sister of Luisa de Quezada y Mendoza (and who might be daughters of Alonso Quezada cc Juana Bautista Sanchez de Mendoza - anybody?). By 1625, Gabriel and Maria were living in Sierra de Pinos.
I have them with three children:
1. Ysabel de Avalos Villaseñor Quezada, b. 22 Feb 1616, Santa Maria de Lagos, Jal, d. 17 Oct 1649, Pinos, Zac; m. Diego Carrion Tremiño.
2. Maria de Avalos Quezada, b. 09 Sep 1618, Santa Maria de Lagos, Jal.
3. Joseph de Avalos Quezada, b. 1625, San Matias, Pinos, Zac.
And then they drop off the map.
On 26 Jul 1639, a Gabriel de Avalos and Augustina de Velasco baptized Nicolas, in Sagrario, SLP; my first thought is, Maria Quezada died and Gabriel remarried. Gaspar de Avalos and Luisa Quezada baptized Mariana the previous 04 Jul 1638, also in Sagrario, SLP, so they were living in the area. It’s also possible that this Gabriel is their son.
I also found a Gabriel de Avalos and Ysabel de Orosco, baptizing Andres, in Irapuato, Gto, 28 Nov 1643. Red flag: Gaspar and Luisa baptized Juan in Irapuato, the next 01 Mar 1644. I have a hunch that this is the same Gabriel de Avalos and Augustina de Velasco, and that she is using an alias, because Augustina de Velasco died a widow and was buried 04 Jul 1660, in Jalostotitlan. The reason I think she was using an alias is because the partida says the parents were “españoles del carcel”: they were in jail. This fits into the M/O of this family, as I’ll explain in coming posts.
Thanks for sharing!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Manny,
I had a question about some of the Avalos that also use the name Villasenor? do you know if theyre connected to the conquistador Juan de Villasenor or how they might be connected to him.
Danny C. Alonso
Hi Danny,
I don't know the source of the name. My ancestor, Ysabel Ruiz de Villasenor, adopted that name after her marriage. She was born Ysabel de Avalos, "Ruiz" is likely from her mother, and I assume "Villasenor" is connected to "Avalos," for teh reason I mentioned. I'm hoping someone here has more information.
Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Manny, I saw this old post about a Gonzalo de Villasenor and Aldonsa de Avalos and thought maybe these people were the ancetors of the people that use Avalos and Villasenor
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/19045
Danny C. Alonso
Hola prim@s,
The reason I started this thread, beside wanting to crack this riddle, is I recently stumbled upon some documents, that put this family in a whole new light, and which just might link these four men as brothers.
It all started with the entry for Gaspar de Avalos, in Rafael Morales Bocardo’s (RMB) “Diccionario biografico de antiguos pobladores de San Luis Potosi 1582-1666,” p 57:
“Vecino en la jurisdiccion del pueblo y ciudad de San Luis Potosi. El 24 feb 1657, se lo abrio proceso de oficio de la real justicia por la muerte del alferez real Gaspar de Amezquita. Fue sentenciado a la pena de muerte y ejecutado en la horca publica.”
”Resident of the town and city of San Luis Potosi. On 24 feb 1657, criminal proceedings began against him for the murder of alferez real Gaspar de Amezquita. He was sentenced to death and hung on the public gallows.”
Curious as to whether this was the same Gaspar de Avalos who was married to Luisa Quezada, I looked for his causa criminal in the SLP Misc records, at FamilySearch. I haven’t found it, but I did find that of his sons, Nicolas and Gaspar Garcia de Avalos, and of their cousins, Juan and Geronimo Aparisio de Avalos, sons of Alonso de Avalos and Catalina de Orosco. Dated 15 Feb 1657, they are accused of the same murder. Gaspar de Avalos is not listed amongst the codefendants, nor as present during any of the crimes.
The expediente is a long 201 images, in good condition and legible, with every-other page numbered. It is incomplete, as it appears to contain only the trials of Juan and Aparisio de Avalos.
I’d really like it, if one or more of you would read it, and add your take to this thread. It has an incredible amount of information, more than I can pick up - and I might have misinterpreted something.
I have to advise, this does not paint a very pretty picture of these two families, which really startled me, since I’ve been researching them for years, and especially since I think my ancestor, Sebastian de Avalos, is linked to them.
15 Feb 1657
Proceso de oficio de la Real Justicia desta Ciudad de San Luis Potosi
Contra
Nicolas Garcia Davalos su hermano Gonzalo Garcia Davalos
Juan y Aparisio Geronimo Davalos hermanos
y los demas culpados en las muertes de Gaspar Amesquita y dos muchachos sus criados
SLP Misc.; Protocolos notariales 1657, vol 1 exp 8-9 img50
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-958F-QFY?i=49&wc=MXBY-TPD
SUMMARY (or, my interpretation, based on my notes from my first read. Please excuse any errors, which I’m sure exist)
Along with accomplice, Juan Rodriguez, Mulato Libre, the 4 cousins are accused of 4 counts of murder, and 3 counts of attempted murder, plus robbery and other crimes.
Background: around 1651, the family of Alonso de Avalos and Catalina de Orosco move to a rancho in SLP called El Ojo de Bague (located in Laguna de Santo Domingo, between Armadillo and Rio Verde, on the camino de La Guasteca). Gaspar de Avalos would move into the area, probably around the same time. His rancho was called “El Ojo de Muerte.” Both families ranched, some cattle.
These 2 families, “Los Avalos,” soon developed a very bad reputation. Witnesses said that they had been terrorizing the territory since their arrival, some 6 years previous. Words used to describe them: “delincuentes, personas de mal vivir, salteadores, ladrones y matadores.”
I was floored. They were an outlaw gang, highwaymen, “Los Avalos.”
And more: Gaspar de Avalos was said to have left Sierra de Pinos, fleeing justice, for crimes he had committed in that jurisdiction. It can be assumed that Alonso de Avalos left Lagos for the same reason, since the judge received word during the trial, that they were wanted for crimes in that jurisdiction.
The murders:
Dec 1656, Alferez Gaspar Amesquita was hauling a load of merchandise (dos mulas cargadas de butacas, ropas y otras cosas), accompanied by 2 muchachos (un Indiozuelo y un Mulatillo llamado Jusepe). Being in the area, he was also collecting debts. The Avalos owed him some 30-40 pesos, and he was going to make a stop. He was last seen heading toward their rancho.
Days passed, and neither he nor his criados had been seen, so authorities were alerted. The Avalos were instantly suspected. A posse was formed, and they were rounded up: brothers, Joseph, Alonso, Juan and Aparisio de Avalos-Orosco, were arrested. Also arrested was Catalina del Castillo (38y), who was sister of Ysabel del Castillo, wife of Nicolas Garcia de Avalos. She was with there for the baptism of their son, Nicolas, on 16 Feb, and for whom she was madrina, along with Juan de Avalos. When authorities searched the house, she was found hiding in a “boltorio” (I suppose a “trunk”), with some of the victim’s belongings. In the wrong place at the wrong time? Was told to grab the stolen items and hide by both Aparisio and Catarina de Orosco.
From what I can tell, from the various and varying testimonies, the Avalos intercepted Amesquita and his party on the road to their ranch. It was Nicolas Garcia de Avalos, the apparent ringleader, who shot Amesquita, and his cousin, Juan de Avalos, shot one of the criados; Juan Rodriguez knocked the other off his mule and killed him with a spear, which he then used to give the coup de grace to the other two victims. Aparisio was told to gather and secure the mules of the victims, which were laden with merchandise. Nicolas and Juan Rodriguez disposed of the bodies, then hid the mules in a nearby canyon. I don’t know what Gaspar Garcia’s role was, though he was involved in other crimes.
Nicolas Garcia de Avalos was also accused of shooting and killing Matias de Vargas, Mulato Libre, and of shooting his brother, Hernando de Vargas, wounding him in the right leg. Juan de Avalos took their weapons, and they took Matias’ yegua. This apparently happened sometime before 22 Jun 1656, on the camino near the rancho of Gaspar de Avalos. In another incident, Nicolas Garcia is accused of shooting and injuring Joseph de los Reyes, Mulato Libre, and leaving him to die. And in yet another incident, he was accused of taking a shot at Lorenzo de Cordoba, though missing.
Along with their accomplice, the 4 cousins were tried and sentenced to death. On 28 March 1657, Juan and Aparisio de Avalos were paraded through the streets of San Luis Potosi, then taken to the public gallows, where they were hung until dead. Their co-defendants were likely executed the same day. The Cofradia de la Vera Cruz requested permission to claim their bodies, and give them Christian burials, as Semana Santa was nearing (likely a request of the family). They were denied. As decreed in their sentences, the cadavers were decapitated, and their heads placed on poles on the 4 roads leaving San Luis Potosi, as examples to other would-be highwaymen. Their bodies were also quartered and hung at the place where they killed Amesquita and the boys, and their belongings and properties were put up for public auction.
Days later, authorities were alerted that the heads of Juan and Aparisio de Avalos had been removed. Family members were instantly suspected. Alonso de Avalos, brother of Juan and Aparisio, and a younger unknown relative, had been seen in the area, on horseback and armed. Searches were conducted for the 2 heads, at a nearby Indian village, but they were not found. A search at the rancho of Gaspar de Avalos found only his wife and daughters, Gaspar and his other sons, being gone. End of Roll
And if that doesn’t sound like the storyline of the next Robert Rodriguez movie, I don’t know what does!
Additional notes:
- Officiating judge was Capitan Don Matias de Alegria Justicia Mayor, and Bartolome Diaz de la Banda was appointed curador (public defender?) for Juan and Aparisio de Avalos, who were minors. Witnesses include, amongst others: Francisco Barbosa, Antonio de Sosa, Francisco de Alcorta, Lorenzo de Cordoba, mercaderes; Pedro de Herrera Escudero, maeste sastre, and Pedro Alonso de los Ynojos, Esp age 40 (todos vecinos desta jurisdiccion de San Luis Potosi).
- Catalina de Orosco, wife of Alonso de Avalos (who was already deceased), was injured during the gun fight that broke out during the arrest her sons. Her son, Alonso, fired the first shot with his “arca buz,” defiantly yelling, “I’ll be dead before I go to jail!”
So, we have Gaspar and Alonso de Avalos as brothers, and part of a crime family (which I’ve dubbed “El Ojo de Muerte Gang,” or, OMG, after Gaspar’s rancho), which lost 5 of its members in one hanging. The next question is, if Gabriel and Sebastian de Avalos are their brothers, are they part of OMG? If Gabriel de Avalos did marry Augustina de Vargas en segundos, then I’d say that there’s a likelihood that he is, since his movements mirrored Gaspar’s. Sebastian de Avalos and his wife remained static, living and dying in Pozos, SLP, suggesting that they weren’t involved. But that’s left to be seen.
Genealogy is not boring.
Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
You certainly spun a great tale of the past. I am throwing out my John LeCarre books out!
As always, thank you for sharing your hard work and presenting it they way you do.
WOW! Manny, this is crazy! I wish I was able to read it. I would read all 200 pages. earlier in the thread you said the partida said for Gabriel de Avalos and Augustina de Velasco that the parents were españoles del carcel. Did that mean his parents or hers or both? And, since I don't know who his parents are, do you think it's for the same crimes? And, is Gabriel de Avalos and Maria Quesada part of these crimes.
Danny C. Alonso
Hola prim@s,
My connection to the Avalos is through my g6, Ysabel Ruiz de Villaseñor, who married first to Matias Gomez de Sotomayor, and secondly to Francisco Sanchez de la Mejorada. She was daughter of Augustin de Avalos and Magdalena Ruiz, and granddaughter of Sebastian de Avalos and Mariana de Castro. When she married Matias Gomez in Panuco in 1683, she was “Ysabel de Avalos,” and by the time they first appear in Sierra de Pinos, in Nov 1689, she’s going by “Ysabel Ruiz.” Knowing how some women adopted their mother’s surnames after marriage, I never questioned this. She later added “de Villaseñor,” I assumed as a nod to her paternal, “Avalos Villaseñor.”
Overwhelmed with the Avalos OMG, I decided to take a break and research another line. While pulling a burial record from the Sagrario SLP archives, on the same page, I noticed the 1 Nov 1681 burial record for a Juan de Avalos. Really? I tried to ignore him, but decided to log him, for later research. And then I noticed the word “Justicia,” and had to read it: Juan de Avalos, Español, had been executed the previous September, and his body quartered. Of course he was. Apparently, the OMG were not finished with me. So, I took the bait, and I chased that bunny right down that hole. I knew I couldn’t sleep, until I found out who this Juan de Avalos was, and whether he was linked to the OMG.
I looked for his causa criminal in the SLP Protocolos. I didn’t find it, but I did find two other cases, related to his:
Juan de la Rosa, Antonio Morales, 21 Jun 1681
Protocolos notariales 1681, vol 2 exp 1-17 img292
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-958F-S4NP?i=291&wc=MXBY-168
Juan de la Rosa (b 1655) was married to Maria de Redondo, and was son of Pedro de Avalos; I don’t know who this Pedro de Avalos was, nor who he was married to (likely a “Rosa”), but he had a sister named Maria de Mendoza, leading me to think he’s a son of either Gaspar or Gabriel de Avalos (anybody?).
Diego de Santiago,23 Jun 1681
Protocolos notariales 1681, vol 3 exp 1-14 img004
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-G58F-SWM7?i=3&wc=MXBY-1Z3
Diego de Santiago was married to Josepha de los Reyes. He was from Sierra de Pinos; it doesn’t say so, but I know he is the son of Juan de Santiago and Maria de los Nieves, of Pinos.
According to these causas, Juan de Avalos was a salteador de caminos (highwayman), who ran in the company of a Mulato Libre named Manuel de la Cruz, and two of his nephews: brothers Sebastian de Avalos (17) and Joseph Ruiz (16). He and his gang were on trial at the time, and Juan de la Rosa and Diego de Santiago were accused of being part of it, from what I can tell (these 2 causas are very difficult to read).
The names of his nephews caught my eye, “Sebastian” and “Ruiz,” since these names are related to my branch of the Avalos. Joseph Ruiz appears as a testigo in both causas. He was in jail at the time, and names his parents as Augustin de Avalos, preso en la carcel publica, and Magdalena Ruiz, deceased. He had been living previously in Zacatecas, working in la mina de San Bartolome de Chichinque.
Of course, my heart sunk, seeing my g7 Augustin de Avalos in jail. But it does place him in Zacatecas previous to 1681, and it does explain why he and Magdalena Ruiz appear to drop off the map. I still haven’t located his causa, so I don’t know what he did, nor *gulp* what happened to him. Apparently, Juan de Avalos was his brother, and another son of Sebastian de Avalos and Mariana de Castro. So, this branch of the Avalos were also criminals, though I don’t know if Sebastian de Avalos is implicated.
During the opening of his testimony, Joseph Ruiz drops a bomb: he doesn’t use “Avalos,” “por ser el apellido [Avalos] desgraciado”: he doesn’t use the Avalos surname, because it’s been disgraced (!!!!!!). Again, I was floored. This tells us how notorious this family/gang was. It also explains why Juan de la Rosa didn’t use “Avalos,” and also why my g6, changed her name from “Ysabel de Avalos,” to “Ysabel Ruiz de Villaseñor,” before moving to Sierra de Pinos: “Avalos” was already known and distrusted in Pinos, and la abuela Ysabel didn’t want to be associated with it! She didn’t like the name.
That’s all I have on Los Avalos and the OMG, for now. Though some of it is conjecture, you read it, and you decide, and please share. To me, it’s looking more and more like Gaspar, Alonso, Gabriel and Sebastian de Avalos were brothers, part of the same family of criminals and murderers, who terrorized Los Altos, Sierra de Pinos, Armadillo, and likely Irapuato. Note: I still haven’t linked Gabriel de Avalos nor any of his descendants to any crimes; I still don’t know if that one I found in jail in 1643 is related to this family.
Wow. Not a pretty legacy, and to the point, that their descendants changed their surnames, and erased “Los Avalos” from public memory. Eran de muy mala uva, nuestros antepasados Los Avalos!
Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
PS to Simona: Thank you, and you’re welcome. I try to make it more interesting, to express the excitement and awe we all experience, when we make new discoveries - especially one as big as this one. I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad news, regarding our Augustin de Avalos. We still don’t know what happened to him, but at least we now know why our abuela, Ysabel Ruiz de Villaseñor, changed her name. We do have skeletons dancing in our closet - dia de los muertos bandido skeletons!
PS to Danny: the partida for the 28 Nov 1643 baptism of Andres de Avalos Orosco names his parents as “Gabriel de Abalos y de Ysabel de Orosco, espanoles del carcel” (lower right):
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GGZ5-9QN9?i=126&wc=3VWB-929
I don’t know why they were in jail. I assume it’s the same Gabriel de Avalos, because Gaspar was living in Irapuato at the same time; we know Gaspar was a criminal, so seeing this Gabriel in jail reveals a possible link. Seeing his wife named “Ysabel de Orosco,” makes me think of Catalina de Orosco, who we know was wife of Alonso de Avalos. Maybe this couple is Alonso de Avalos and Catalina de Orosco, using aliases? It’s all conjecture, at this point. We need to do more research, and see if Gabriel de Avalos and Ysabel de Orosco baptized any more children in Irapuato, or somewhere else; they might be unrelated.
Spanish is my second language, though both of my parents are Hispanic, we spoke only English in our house. When I graduated from high school, I was sent to Spain to learn Spanish, which I’ve mastered, since then (I speak with a lisp and pronounce my name DHEE-eth!). So, there’s still hope for you! Do a semester abroad, and stay away from other English speakers! md
Manny, im gonna start college next year. I already have a bunch of brochures and different programs that allow you to study Spanish in foreign countries but I don't think I can do it during my freshman year. but also my mom doesnt want me too because shes worried about terror and other stuff. but if im able to get into some of the schools I want to and am able to travel to study spanish I definitly will.
About the Avalos, now Im hoping that Gabriel de Avalos that's with MAria de Quesada is a different person than Gabriel de Avalos that's with Ysabel de Orosco. although it does make a good story
About Pedro de Avalos sister Maria, Gabriel de Avalos and MAria Quesada did have a dauther named Maria here is the baptism I got off of her Wikitree
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KWZ1-C
i still wonder where the Villasenor comes from. it seemed like a lot of the Villasenors came from the Captain Juan de Villasenor here
http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/De_Villaseñor_y_Orozco_Tovar-1
So since our people use Avalos and Villasenor i thought maybe these people Gonzalo de Villasenor and Aldonsa de Avalos that i saw on this Nuestros Ranchos thread were the ancestors of our people
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/19045
But now this Avalos and Villasenors seem a bit high class to be connected to our gang of criminal Avalos.
Danny C. Alonso
PS to Danny: the partida for the 28 Nov 1643 baptism of Andres de Avalos Orosco names his parents as “Gabriel de Abalos y de Ysabel de Orosco, espanoles del carcel” (lower right):
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GGZ5-9QN9?i=126&wc=3VWB-929
In reference to the above comment, I'd like to clarify that it doesn't say "del carcel" (in any case, cárcel is a feminine noun and, given the case it would be "de la cárcel"), but "del carical", carical bein "carrizal", wrspelled with a single "r" and with the C (c cedilla) instead of "Z".
Hi Hector,
You're right this does most likely say Carrizal, which I believe is in Ayo el Chico. Good eye.
Danny.
Segun su acta de bautizo, Don José Guadalupe Padilla de la Torre (1861–1929) nace en Tres Palos.
Lo que se encuentra en linea es minimo:
DE LOS SITIOS OFICIALES:
La localidad de Tres Palos está situada en el Municipio de San Ignacio Cerro Gordo (o, de la Trasquila por la lana que se produce,) en el Estado de Jalisco. Hay 39 habitantes. Tres Palos está a 2,030 metros de altitud.
En ANALES DEL MINISTERIO DE FOMENTO DE LA REPÚBLICA MEXICANA, TOMO 9, en el indice alfabetico de todos los puntos poblados del Estado, se menciona indicando su categoria.
Localidad: Tres Palos
Municipalidad: Arandas
Canton.: 3o
Categoria: Rancho
(Pagina 188)
La COLECCIÓN DE LOS DECRETOS: CIRCULARES Y ÓRDENES DE LOS PODERES LEGISLATIVO Y EJECUTIVO DEL ESTADO DE JALISCO, TOMO 6, menciona en "La linea divisoria del municipio de Arandas, con el S. Miguel el Alto, se fija: partiendo del punto de Tamera Vieja en las cumbres del cerrito del Salto: Puerta de la Rosa de Castilla y Mesa de los Caballos; abarca el cerro del Caracol, que con el rancho de los Tres palos, queda entre la demarcacion de Arandas; de dicho cerro se dirige a la cabeza de la Canada de los Nogales, y por su fondo baja al Embolismo, que es su punto de interseccion con el arroyo de los Tres Palos, y el de partida en la linea de Arandas con Tepatitlan..."
(Paginas 121-122)
Del PLAN DE DESARROLLO MUNICIPAL DE SAN IGNACIO CERRO GORDO, JALISCO, 2015-2035:
"Se distribuyen las zonas de cultivos del territorio de San Ignacio Cerro Gordo
de la manera: ganadero, es la zona de la carretera parte norte hacia Atotonilco
el Alto; también es territorio ganadero de Bellavista a Tres Palos y por el lado de Los
Dolores. De cultivo para maíz, se destinan las orillas de las carreteras, más la parte de
Higuerillas y en esta misma parte se deja como zacate para ganado es hacia el oeste del
territorio y una parte después de Higuerillas...
...Contamos además, con ruinas hacendarias en el rancho de Tres Palos, con caminos
reales en diferentes zonas del municipio y se tienen algunos lugares donde se realizaron
gestos históricos de la guerra cristera."
Yup I know this is not from our area of research but I still need help with a surname.
I agree with Manny. The long part of the "f" lost some ink in the middle, so it's hard to see it as one letter. Notice the "j" in the word "hijo" above has the same issue, but the line is a bit darker. The "difta" is a separate abbreviation.
Rosalinda
thanks for looking over the message and comments. joseph
I see "Delfin," followed by “di.fta” - the abbreviation of “difunta” or “deceased.”
Manny Díez Hermosillo
thank you for your help with this.
Joseph
Greetings everyone: I am looking for information about the mother of Mariana de Mendoza y Velasco. She was the wife of Capt.
The word you are referring to is "Velóse" which refers to a ceremony which takes place after the actual marriage sacrament. "Consistía en unir con un manto a los cónyuges en la misa nupcial celebrada inmediatamente después del casamiento"
Oxford Dictionary
Daniel Méndez de Torres y Camino
How do we find out our Indigenous tribe of our grandparents if there were never records like the colonizers made the northern tribes do.There is no paper trails for our lineage for tribal affiliation
It all depends. In some communities, if you’re lucky, they do name the person's tribe. For instance, I was just looking at marriage records in Venado, SLP, early 1700s, and some individuals are listed as “Indio Tlascalteco,” and others as “Tarasco,” and yet others as “Guachichile.” I've also seen records from Chihuahua during the 1800s, that would name "Apaches" and "Comanches," etc. But for the most part, you’ll just get the generic “India/o.” It’s hit & miss. Just keep digging through the archives.
You can also use DNA: Ancestry has my indigenous DNA being predominantly from central Chihuahua: my most recent ancestors documented as Indigenous (whose DNA would likely be the only ones registering) lived in Satevó and in Cusihuiriachi: from looking at an interactive map of first nations that I saw online, I know that the local tribes in those places were Concho and Rarámuri, respectively. I have earlier Indigenous ancestors from the Mexican interior, but they are too far back in my lines to register.
I hope that helps - good luck!
Manny Díez Hermosillo
Thank you yes its a quest because none of my Tias or Tios know anything my grandfather said it was by choice before he passed away..My Grandmother died when i was younger.I would have love to hear her stories..The journey has been many years and i wont stop.I think its very important for us to grow and spread our nation to say We are still here, not by the colonizers standard but by our ancestors lineage..
Hello Group,
According to My 2grgrandfather Pablo Donate's informacion matrimonial, he was married in Asientos, but was from Agostadero. Where do I search for birth info?
Thanks so much,
Alice BB
Hi Alice,
Daniel is correct, there were various haciendas by that name. If your ancestor was married in Asientos, then he was likely from the Agostadero located nearby, and which today is known as Villa Garcia, Zacatecas. The main house is now the municipal palace. Historically, it was in the diocese of San Matias, Pinos, Zac, so that's probably where you want to steer your search.
Good luck!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Thanks for your responses.
I knew that Villa Garcia didn't come about until 1860, and
was once a part of the Agostadero Hacienda. But there are
no Villa Garcia church records at all on Familysearch. Pablo Donate's son
Rosalio Onate is also unknown birthplace, however, Pablo Donate's
grandson, Luis Onate, was born in Villa Garcia 10/23/1885.
So, I was wondering the best place to search for Pablo and son
Rosalio. Well, San Matias, Pinos is worth investigating.
Thank you again,
Alice BB
Hi Alice,
I have ancestors that lived in Hacienda del Agostadera (today Villa Garcia) (1750-1850). I have found all of them in the church in Asientos, Aguascalientes. Definitely the records from el Agostadero was part of the jurisdiction of the church in Asientos, at least in the range that I have studied.
The ranches around El Agostadero were nevertheless included in San Matias, Pinos.
I hope this information helps
sus
Thank you so much, it gives me another avenue to explore.
Would you be willing to share your ancestors surnames from Agostadero.
Mine are Onate or Donate, Candelas, Monrreal, Becerra, Esquivel, Encalado, Carranza, Lopez, Ortis, Gonzales, and Vega going back to about 1750 to present.
Any and all info is greatly appreciated. Again, thank you for your response.
Alice BB
Hi Alice,
I can help you with your Becerra and your Candelas, I descend from both. Who are your earliest ancestors in both lines, who were they married to, and when did they live?
Un abrazo,
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Terrific Manny, I appreciate it.
Sorry, I misspoke about the Becerras, but failed to mention Valderrama date to abt 1750.
The earliest Candela I have found is Jose Dolores Candelas about 1780? married to Ma Felipa Encalado 05/23/1812 in Asientos. Son: Victor Candelas about 1820? married Maria Luisa Esquivel 04/03/1845, Asientos. Daughter: Maria Petra Candelas about 1857? married Rosalio Donate 02/20/1875, Villa Garcia, my grgrandfather. Onate was my mother's maiden name.
What can you tell me about Domingo Becerra abt 1800, his marriage and children?
All input is appreciated. Muchisimas gracias.
Alice BB
Hola Alice,
“Candelas” is tricky surname, as far as the families who live in the curates of Pinos, Asientos and Cienega de Mata,Ojuelos. The name originated with Joseph Candelas, who married Petrona Ortiz Bernal, on 7 Feb 1701, in Pinos. They were servants on Agostadero. I say “tricky,” because in many cases, the name was passed down matrilineally. Plus, some descendants of the Bernal family also used “Candelas.”
I’ve got most of these families mapped-out through the 1700’s, but my research ends around 1800. These families were of mixed race, being either “españoles” or “mestizos.” There were Indian families who also used the Candelas name, but I don’t track them, since they don’t descend from Joseph and Petrona (they were likely “criados” of the Candelas, and adopted their surname).
That said, I found your Dolores Candelas and Felipa Encalado in the 1820 and 1822 padrones:
Candelas in 1820 Agostadero (right image)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9BF-73KR-S?i=393&cat=…
Candelas 1822 Agostadero (right image)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9BF-434B-V?i=161&cat=…
Dolores was 43 in 1820 (ca 1777) and Felipa, 26 (ca 1794). Unfortunately, I’m not going to be much help to you, beyond this, because they were Indians. Indians can be more difficult to track, because surnames aren’t always listed on church records previous to 1800. Keep looking in Asientos, Pinos and Cienega de Mata. You might also want to check Ojocaliente in the 1800s. Several of these records aren’t indexed, so you might have to go through each individual roll of film.
I’m not sure which Domingo Becerra you’re looking for. There was one who married Ramona Chavez 1 Oct 1825, in Asientos. I don’t know who his children were (I seldom research the 1800s, unless they’re my direct ancestors), but he was son of Jose Antonio Becerra and his first wife, Maria Nestora Gonzalez; Jose Antonio was son of Hermenegildo Becerra cc Maria Matiana Micaela Bernal/es Duron; Hermenegildo was hijo natural of Anna Becerra de Aguilera and padre no conocido; I believe Anna Becerra was daughter of Margarita de Lira and her first husband, Gaspar de los Reyes Aguilera, but was raised by her second husband, Francisco Becerra, whose name she used (Francisco and Margarita are my g5’s). I don’t know Gaspar Aguilera’s ancestry.
I hope that helps!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Wow that was great information to read, love reading stuff like this.
Wow that was great information to read, love reading stuff like this.
Once again, thanks so much, Manny, it most certainly helps.
It verifies, clarifies, and is so interesting!
I was hoping I had finally found an indio, but can't be certain.
I'm willing and have gone image by image for my research, but I've been having such
problems with "freezing up" after a few images. Not sure what the problem is, it just
makes searching so much more time consuming and frustrating.
I'm looking for an entry that indicates indio and not mestizo, because I know through DNA that I'm 25%, just would love to find where, perhaps the paternal tree. I suppose it could go so far back on either side that I may never find the source. Until then I will keep on searching. It's too interesting to quit!
Alice BB
Hi Manny,
No kidding Candelas is a tricky surname! I found the informacion matrimonial 05/23/1812 Asientos, on Dolores Candelas and Felipa Encalado and they are both described as Espanoles!?!
Go figure. I was hoping to find them to be indios. I'll keep searching.
Many thanks again,
Alice BB
APUNTES PARA LA HISTORIA DE LA FAMILIA REYES
Los Ojeda Candelas en Trancoso y Agostadero
El censo del año de 1832 realizado en la hacienda de Agostadero contiene información de indiscutible importancia para estos Apuntes. Revela, primeramente, que la hacienda estaba administrada por don Antonio García Salinas y que vivían con él su esposa doña Loreto Elías y sus pequeños hijos Isabel y Jesús. Ellos están referidos a la casa grande, "la casa del señor Apoderado".
La primera pregunta que surge es porqué siendo tan rico como era don Antonio, estaba administrando Agostadero, hacienda que pertenecía a la familia Moncada y Berrio. En ese tiempo don Antonio era dueño de la gran hacienda de Trancoso, la de Rancho Grande en Jerez y la de Las Bocas, cerca de Salinas, . . . y sin embargo vivía en Agostadero.
¿Porqué vivía allí?
Hay un relato en la ´Historia de La Montesa´ de nuestro tío Guadalupe Díaz de León, que dice que don Francisco García Salinas "Tata Pachito" (hermano de don Antonio) el prominente político que había sido gobernador de Zacatecas y ministro de Economía y Fomento en el gabinete del presidente don Guadalupe Victoria, pasaba temporadas en Agostadero y que allí se casó en segundas nupcias con una de las muchachas Dávila. Otra crónica dice que habiendo estado en México, Tata Pachito se retiró a Agostadero un tiempo, deprimido por haber sido defenestrado de aquel importante Ministerio.
No obstante, el censo aporta un dato fundamental para nuestra historia familiar, y es la constatación de que teniendo 40 años de edad nuestra matriarca doña Felipa Encalado, la abuela de Mamá Libradita y bisabuela de Mamá Carlotita, formaba parte de la servidumbre de la casa grande de Agostadero, al servicio de los señores García Salinas-Elías.
Esta constatación podría explicar porqué Librada (y Carlota en su momento) fueron sirvientas en Trancoso, encargadas también de la casa grande, más o menos cuando se regresaron los Elías a aquella hacienda. Esto pudo haber ocurrido quizá cuando murió don Antonio, por lo que el joven don Jesús su hijo (y futuro papá de don Genaro) coheredó y se hizo cargo de aquella gran finca de campo. De manera que nuestra gente los Candelas Encalado y Candelas Palomino a lo largo de tres generaciones del Siglo XIX, en tanto que servidumbre, fue y vino de Agostadero a Trancoso y de Trancoso a Agostadero.
Pero detrás de la señera presencia de doña Felipa Encalado que debió haber nacido hacia 1790, se despliega otra historia de familia, una más profunda y conmovedora... verdaderamente fascinante.
APUNTES
El Censo de la hacienda de Agostadero realizado en 1820, menciona a varios de nuestros viejos parientes, los de la rama Ojeda Candelas. Los registros no dejan duda acerca del doble origen de esas familias: unas eran españolas, de pura cepa, y otras indígenas, que en algún momento del mestizaje adquirieron el apellido Candelas.
Nosotros descendemos de don José Dolores Candelas y doña Felipa de Encalado, quienes fueron censados como ´indios´. Ellos son los abuelos paternos de "mamá Libradita". Si bien las variantes genealógicas y raciales de la familia Candelas resultan interesantes, no lo es menos el caso de la familia Encalado. Los registros más antiguos de ese apellido son de inmigrantes ibéricos que llegaron a las minas de Sombrerete hacia 1600, apellidándose "De la Encalada". Quizá por la vinculación de esas poblaciones con la minería, aparecen luego otros núcleos genealógicos en los reales Pinos y de Asientos con el apellido " De Encalada" o " De Encalado", pero ya no solo son españoles, sino afrodescendientes e indígenas.
Bien establecido ese origen indígena de nuestra rama familiar, ya que descendemos de Gregorio Candelas Encalado que aparece censado con apenas cuatro años de edad, es importante mencionar que nuestra gente permaneció asentada por generaciones en grandes tramos del camino Real de tierra-adentro, formando parte de la servidumbre de ´el Condado´, que abarcaba las haciendas de Trancoso, El Carro, San Marcos, Ciénega Grande, El Lobo, Pilotos y Agostadero, cuyo antiguo dueño había sido don Felipe Cayetano de Medina Sarabia. Posteriormente, a principios el Siglo XIX cuando se hizo el Censo, ya pertenecía a don Juan Nepomuceno de Moncada y Berrio.
APUNTES
Los Ojeda Candelas en Trancoso y Agostadero
Librada Candelas Palomino ´Mamá Libradita´, nació en la Hacienda de Agostadero, hoy Villa García Zacatecas en el año de 1842 y murió en 1915. Fue pilmama y llavera (ama de llaves) en la servidumbre de la casa grande de la Hacienda de Trancoso con la familia García Salinas.
Fue persona de mucho carácter y determinación, muy apreciada por sus patrones. Decían que aún siendo una doméstica en la casa grande de Trancoso se le confirió poder y mando por su lealtad a toda prueba. Casó con Vicente Ojeda Morales en 1861. Cuando regresó a Agostadero (Villa García) hacia 1876 montó un obraje de cobijas y sarapes siguiendo la tradición de familia.
Era morena en extremo, era negra pero decían que tenía ojos aguamielados. Lo cierto es que su origen etnico la ubicaría en la antigua casta virreinal de ´los Lobos´, resultante del mestizaje de la sangre española e indígena con predominancia de la afrodescendiente, esto último sin duda, provenia de doña Felipa Encalado, su abuela materna.
Aparece en algunas fotografías hacia 1895, ya viuda, bien establecida y próspera con dos de sus hijas: Rosa y Elvira que habían nacido en Trancoso. En esas gráficas lleva al seno una "leopoldina" de plata, tal como la usaron las buenas rancheras zacatecanas del tiempo de Imperio y la Reforma. Al ver otras fotografías de la familia y de la misma época (como la de su hermana Elvira) se advierte que su uso era muy común. Decía mi papá que algunas veces esa prenda de orfebrería de plata zacatecana tenía engarces de gemas semipreciosas como chalchihuites, relicarios en los cuales se insertaban pequeñas fotografías, de las primeras que se comenzaron a producir en forma de daguerrotipos, o bien se insertaban abalorios como trozos de marfil o colmillos de jabalí calados en filigrana. Ese era, quizá, todo el exceso de adorno en plata labrada que se permitían llevar encima las mujeres de aquel tiempo, a diferencia de los caballeros que podían llevar decenas de piezas de plata labrada en sus botonaduras y toquillas del sombrero.
En las fotografías tomadas en su casa de Villa García, les sirve de telón uno de esos rústicos jorongos de lana para la gente de rancho que se tejían en su obraje. Eran de lana negra, canelona o frailesca, que era muy barata y considerada de segunda calidad puesto que solo la blanca tenía buen mercado y era muy cara porque se podía teñir.
Los originales de esas fotografías lo tiene la tía Socorro Galaviz Ojeda, en Lagos de Moreno
APUNTES
Los Ojeda Candelas en Trancoso y Agostadero
Se ha conservado una estupenda fotografía de la tía Elvira Candelas Palomino en Villa García, Zacatecas, hacia 1890. Aparece como una auténtica rancherona adinerada portando al seno una valiosa leopoldina. Vivió sus últimos años en Villa García y no sabían decirnos "si se casó o se quedó de cotorrita".
En la tradición oral se decía que en su obraje se tejían buenas cobijas y jorongos de lana oscura. El jorongo era una prenda personal, una cobija de más cortas dimensiones que se portaba "terciado al hombro" y formó parte imprescindible de la indumentaria típicamente masculina de la clase media rural. Según la tradición, la mejor prueba de la calidad de los tejidos de lana se probaba sosteniendo un jorongo nuevo por las esquinas entre dos personas y entonces la tía Elvira, como buena artesana y comerciante que era, le vaciaba un cántaro de agua, y no debía salir ni una gota por debajo de la cuneta. Eran piezas textiles bromosas pero ligeras, calientes e impermeables, muy apreciadas por los arrieros y la gente de los fríos reales de minas de la región.
Había otros relatos muy antiguos y muy interesantes que nos contaba mi abuelo Ezequiel. Eran "charras" o cuentecillos burlescos e inocentones muy antiguos que movían a risa y diversión, como la charra "de las tres presumidas", que se nos platicaba así:
Estas eran tres negritas muy rancheras que iban a ir al pueblo a una fiesta y el negrito su padre les había hecho un regalo a cada una de ellas. A una un anillo, a otra unos aretes y a la tercera unos zapatos. Al acudir al pueblo y ya en la casa a donde les habían invitado, las negritas se sentían menos y querían presumir sus regalos, sus prendas nuevas. Así que en medio de la gente invitada a la fiesta, una de las prietitas gritó:
- Mira una jaraña!, señalando el piso con el dedo del anillo.
Otra dijo:
- Yo no la jamato, meneando sus grandes aretes.
... y la tercera gritó:
- Yo la jamataré!, aplastando al bicho con sus zapatos nuevos.
Mi tío Fernando Ojeda Ibarra también nos platicaba acerca de la gente de Villa García de aquel tiempo, como el relato de una asombrosa ave "tan grande que al pasar volando tapaba la luna" y que la gente sencilla y temerosa de todo creía que era un ser sobrenatural pero que en realidad era un enorme zopilote viejo que bajaba graznando por las noches desde las peñas del cerro del Picacho, hasta a ese pueblo, solo para comerse los restos de pieles y pellejos crudos que se desechaban de las rústicas tenerías, las que allí curtían gamuzas.
El original de esa fotografía lo tiene la tía Socorro Galaviz Ojeda en Lagos de Moreno.
APUNTES PARA LA HISTORIA DE LA FAMILIA REYES
Los Ojeda en Trancoso 1860-1882
De acuerdo a las evidencias documentales, la estancia de nuestra familia en Trancoso debe haber durado unos 25 años. En ese tiempo ocurrieron hechos históricos de la mayor importancia, como la Guerra de Reforma y la intervención francesa. De ambos sucesos, nuestra gente conservó algunos recuerdos y una evidencia incontrovertible. Por ejemplo, mi abuelo Ezequiel nos platicaba que en su casa recordaban cuando llegaron a Trancoso los soldados Suavos. Esto fue así porque don Jesús García Elías formó parte de la facción conservadora más radical, enemiga de la Reforma, de manera que en esa hacienda se les proveía de caballos y alimentos mientras duró aquella incruenta guerra. Pero ese desliz histórico de los García lo pagarían muy caro, con el destierro, a la caída de Maximiliano y triunfo de la República.
No obstante la restauración de las instituciones republicanas, la marcada diferenciación social entre aristócratas hacendados y campesinado, la servidumbre, se volvió a imponer durante el porfiriato. Porfirio Díaz mantuvo una cercana amistado con los dueños de Trancoso ya que los llamó del destierro y respetó sus propiedades.
APUNTES PARA LA HISTORIA DE LA FAMILIA REYES
Los Ojeda en Trancoso 1860-1882
Toda la vida de Vicente Ojeda Morales estuvo relacionada con los equinos. Su juventud en la hacienda de La Ciénega de Jerez debió haber sido determinante en ese oficio ya que esa finca rural fue gran productora de mulas que se vendían para accionar las tahonas y los malacates en las minas. Estando en Trancoso, según la tradición oral que recibimos, fue peón de cuadra, cochero y mozo de estribos del hacendado. Cuando se independizó y se fue a vivir a Villa García se hizo carretero ya que compró troncos de mulas y con unas viejas guayinas comenzó a portear mercaderías entre esa región y Zacatecas. De allí provino una larga y vieja tradición que llegó a sus hijos y luego hasta mi abuelo Ezequiel.
José María y Vicente Ojeda Candelas fueron Albéitares o curanderos de mulas en las minas de Zacatecas y Mapimí. Mi tío bisabuelo Vicente "tío Chente" a quien conocimos ya muy viejecito hacia 1964, había sido caballerango del general revolucionario José Pérez Castro en la hacienda de Castro, cerca de Lagos de Moreno entre 1907 y 1914, poco antes de que fusilaran a ese militar en León Guanajuato.
Hay una interesante gráfica de los caballerangos de Trancoso amansando hacia 1890 un potro bruto. Había una vieja artimaña para "quitarle las cosquillas" a los equinos salvajes. Después de jinetearlos con pretal y espuelas para irlos amansando, procedían a ayatearlos con largos escobetones de popote, como se ve, para quitarles lo quisquilloso. Así evitaban las coces y las mordidas del cuaco matrero. Después de esa etapa comenzaba su educación con la monta con silla, acompañando de madrina y usando en principio la falsa rienda.
APUNTES PARA LA HISTORIA DE LA FAMILIA REYES
Los Ojeda Candelas en Trancoso y Agostadero
Durante la restauración de la República, el gobierno de Zacatecas desterró a las familias García Salinas y García Rojas, entre otras emparentadas entre sí por haber apoyado al segundo imperio. Dejando sus haciendas y casonas a cargo de representantes legales como el Licenciado De la Campa y la servidumbre de sus confianzas, se fueron a vivir a León. Es probable que en alguna ocasión Librada y Vicente hayan ido a esa incipiente ciudad industrial del Bajío. No hay noticia de que hayan vivido allá.
Hacia 1876, cuando comenzaron a volver esos hacendados a tomar posesión nuevamente y vivir en sus propiedades las cosas comenzarían a cambiar. Para algunos, como los de Trancoso, ese destierro duró unos siete años, de manera que el Licenciado don José María de la Campa y Cos debió entregar los innumerables bienes al regreso de los dueños. Lo mismo ocurriría con los encargados de la casa y otros bienes menores, como Mamá Libradita y don Vicente Ojeda.
Tenemos la idea de que la lealtad de esos sirvientes menores como los Ojeda Candelas fue recompensada con alguna remuneración pecuniaria o vendiéndoles casa y terrenos en Villa García, que fue donde se asentaron de regreso y pusieron su mesón de arrieros y su taller de tejidos de lana.
Pero en la tradición se nos decía que la joven Carlota se había tenido que quedar en Trancoso al servicio de doña Loreto García o una de sus hermanas que no había contraído matrimonio: que se la quedaron, la retuvieron.
Teniendo tiernos 14 años, Carlota fue educada y adiestrada para continuar como domestica muy cercana a las dueñas de aquel latifundio. Allí aprendió a leer y escribir con admirable corrección y le enseñaron a hacer cuentas. Aprendió modales (y a andar a caballo en albardón para acompañar a las damas aquellas, nos decían) y sobre todo prodigar un trato señorial, sumiso y educadísimo. En ese tiempo la hacienda de Agostadero se convirtió en Municipio y la cabecera cambió de nombre a Villa García en honor al gobernante ejemplar que fue don Francisco García Salinas ´Tata Pachito´.
Carlota Ojeda Candelas vivió en Trancoso unos seis años teniendo a sus padres y hermanos en Villa García. Se comprende que se veían con cierta frecuencia porque don Vicente iba a Zacatecas en su oficio de carretero y porteador, y en ese tránsito está Trancoso. Se nos decía que las damas hacendadas precisaban mucho de Carlota y decían tenerle aprecio, pero ni siquiera le daban permiso de ir de vacaciones a Villa García. Sin embargo, en una de esas se quedó en casa con sus padres, por lo que las mandonas de las Garcías mandaron varias veces a por ella, con exigencia y disgusto. Pero Carlota ya no quiso regresar a Trancoso porque pronto formó noviazgo en Villa García, de manera que ya para Agosto de 1882 tramitaba en el real de Asientos su matrimonio con Aureliano Reyes Diaz de León, uno de los muchachos dueños de San Francisco de los Reyes, que era un rancho distante apenas dos leguas de Villa García rumbo a San Nicolás de Quijas, sobre el camino del Obraje.
PUNTES PARA LA HISTORIA DE LA FAMILIA REYES
Los Ojeda en Trancoso 1860-1882
(Tradición oral)
Don Vicente nació en La Ciénega, cerca de Jerez el 28 de Enero de 1823. Murió en Trancoso hacia 1897. Muy joven fue chinaco y "mozo de estribos" de don Genaro García García Rojas dueño de una parte de la hacienda de Trancoso y toda la de San Marcos, cargo de suma confianza que nuestra gente consideró como una verdadera distinción. Nos decían que ese "destino" ya no era de cuidar los caballos, que para eso estaban los mozos de cuadra, sino que era de su obligación ensillar el bridón que iba a montar ese día el amo, o el que traía de su gusto por un tiempo. Había que limpiar la montura con linaza, verificar las condiciones del cincho, el freno, la cabezada y la jáquima. Se debía tener descolgada y desempolvada la calzonera, el sombrero y el cotón que conformaban la rica indumentaria del señorón aquel; había que bruñirle sus espuelas y demás fornituras del recaudo.
Se usaba una especie de ritual en el que había que "calzar de caballero" al amo, poniéndole las espuelas y abotonarle la calzonera o las chivarras; usanza en la cual, el mozo debía permanecer hincado de una rodilla y destocado.
El buen mozo de estribos debía sostener el freno y la cabezada del caballo mientras el amo se enhorquetaba parado desde un banco: allí y solo allí era, justamente, el palafrenero. Andando en el monte, como no había banco que usar y el amo se apeaba a mear o cagar, y después de haber satisfecho esa necesidad, el mozo le daba su propia rodilla al pie del señor para que alcanzara el estribo del lado de montar y subiera al caballo. Ya sentado, y siempre por los costados, el mozo se destocaba para acomodarle las indumentarias y le "pachoneba" el caballo para tranquilizarlo. El mozo de estribos iba siempre al lado del criador (a la izquierda de la cabalgadura principal), por si él deseaba echar un lazo, usar la carabina para lo cual debía cargar y recargar las armas de retaque. También el señor podía usar "el cíntaro toledano", para disciplinar a los insolentados. El criado no dejaba que se le arrimaran los perros bravos o la gente de a pie. Lo proveía de agua, licor, bocadillos o ropa; le prendía el cigarro con golpe de islabón o le daba candela si prefería fumar en cachimba y se adelantaba en el camino para mirar provisoriamente los acontecimientos de la llegada del dueño y ejecutaba cualquier instrucción que se le daba.
Contaban que en una ocasión que salieron a montear y revisar sus propiedades, siembras, ordeñas y engordas, vieron un jinete misterioso que ante su proximidad pegó la carrera al monte desde una tupida nopalera. Siendo su propiedad e intrigado por aquella insolencia de que no haya saludado ni hecho pleitesía al amo, le ordenó a Vicente Ojeda..
...... atájalo, ¡que no se te juiga!
Y el mozo espoleó su cuaco y salió catapultado tras de aquel desconocido. Contaban que Vicente hizo lo que ningún caballero debía hacer, salvo en cumplimiento de una orden como aquella, pues habiéndole apercibido que se detuviera y ser desobedecido, se aproximó al caballo del fugitivo y se lo coleó, derribando caballo y jinete. Rodaron resquebrajándose las costillas contra el fuste y al punto ya estaba el amo allí, inquiriendo al peláo aquel, que quedó tirado, descalabrado por la tremenda malacachoncha y tenía toda la boca reventada, llena de tierra y sangre.
¿Qué haces aquí? ¿Quién eres?, le inquirió el terrateniente
-Disculpe l´amo, pero me metí a la majada a comer unas tunas, voy de paso a Zacatecas.....
Don Vicente no estaba a gusto en Trancoso y se independizó a luego. Se hizo carretero, porteador de mercancías entre Pinos y Zacatecas. Llegó a tener varias “guayinas” trabajando con sus troncos de tiro (cada "tronco de tiro", como decían ellos, estaba compuesto por seis bestias mulares). Hizo un capital nada despreciable. Tuvo varias casas y un mesón para arrieros en Villa García.
Decía Don Ezequiel Reyes Ojeda, que a su abuelo, siendo porteador reconocido, el Ayuntamiento de Zacatecas le encomendó la compra y el traslado del yeso que se utilizó en los estucados del Teatro Calderón. Lo extrajo de los yacimientos que hay en las cercanías de la Sierra del Astillero. Se contaba que un año antes de morir, se le incendiaron, con el fuego de la noche, dos guayines cargados con mercancías valiosas en un paraje cercano a la hacienda de San Pedro Piedra Gorda. Él contaba “Las charras del Tío Rositas”, cuentecillos de un arriero zacatecano, fantasioso y picaresco.
APUNTES PARA LA HISTORIA DE LA FAMILIA REYES: LOS MULEROS
Hacia 1885, los tíos Vicente y José María Ojeda Candelas se fueron de Villa García a probar suerte en compañías mineras de Zacatecas. Por allá encontraron un buen destino, como se les llamaba entonces a los empleos. Su trabajo era el de curar los bestias de tiro que movían los molinos de mineral así como los que accionaban los malacates. Las exigencias de energía animal en la industria minera era despiadada, pues las tahonas de mineral se conocían como "molinos de sangre", de tal manera que a los cuantos días de pegar un animal fuerte y lozano a los arneses, se pasmaban o simplemente desfallecían de puro agotamiento. En tales condiciones, se les denominaba mulas "lacradas" o "quebrantadas".
Ellos conocían el antiguo arte de la Albeitía, indudablemente por enseñanzas de su padre don Vicente que fue carretero y porteador. Aliviaban esas nobles bestias de tiro y carga en corrales y macheros especiales con diversos “remedios” que eran mejunjes y unturas preparadas con ciencia propia. Después de permanecer en Zacatecas y Fresnillo, migraron a Mapimí hacia 1909. Por allá se quedó el tío José María y el tío Chente ingresó a las filas de la Revolución al lado del General Pérez Castro. A él lo conocimos ya muy ancianito, hacia 1963 y nos contaba historias.
Hi Alicia,
Depending on which Agostadero. I know there is one in the jurisdiction of Jalpa and the "main" one in the region is between Aguascalientes and Asientos, if I remember correctly. I hope this sheds some light!
Best Regards,
Daniel Méndez de Torres y Camino
Don José Bruno Macías Valadéz Muñoz (1851–1915) descrito en censos como agricultor, nació el 6 de octubre de 1851 en Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, México, hijo de Secundino y Rita.
En levantamientos rurales catastrales de 1906 tenemos evidencia que Marcelino Macias Valadez (padre) era aun propietario de las fincas Mesa Jocoyde en Calvillo y La Barranca en Jesus Maria.
Y, en El Diario Oficial aun lista terrenos a su nombre en febrero 15, 1970, donde se discute la expropiacion de terrenos, se menciona la inafectabilidad del el predio La Esperanza, propiedad de Marcelino Macias Valadez (hijo).
Desgraciadamente no hay acceso al documento completo, por lo que no se puede determinar el resultado de esta accion gubernamental.
Hit a wall with Manuel Felix y Suriano first married to Antonia Ortis then Carmen Carlos de Godi. From my research he went by Manuel Felix and sometimes by Manuel Suriano.
1)-Ysidoro Escobedo and Maria de La Concepcion
2)-Lazaro Antonio Escobedo and Juana Maria Garai (not married, Lazaro was married to another woman)
3)-Luisa Escobedo and Nicolas Bernardino Soriano ( son of Felix Soriano and Maria Luisa)
4)-Jose Manual Soriano/Suriano (aka Manuel Felix) married twice, 1st to Antonia Ortiz and 2nd to Maria del Carmen Carlos de Godi.
Happy Mother’s Day
Rick A. Ricci
baptism 25 Sept 1808 in Jerez, Zac
Maria Jesus Agapita Espanola born in Santa Fe 5 days old 11am
parents: Jose Manuel Suriano and Maria del Carmen Godoi
pat grn: Nicolas Suriano and Luisa Garay
mat grn: Juan Carlos Godoy and Magdalena de la Torre
godparents: Juan Jose Lespron and Ynes Medrano
source: 0439849 film
page 189 Family search online
.
marriage 8 Jan 1742 in Jerez, Zac
Nicolas Bernardino Soriano Espanol from Juanacatique
parents: Felix Soriano and Maria Luisa
with: Luisa Escobedo Espanola from Juanacatique
natural child of Antonio Lazaro Escobedo and Juana Maria Garai
godparents: Caitano de Santiago and Maria Dolores
witness: Joseph Castro and Marcos Reyes
source: 0440059 Jerez marriage record
page 498 Family search online
Record of Luisa Garai
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-GH9P-16?from=lynx1UIV8…
Marriage record
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-GB44-F?from=lynx1UIV8&…
Rick A. Ricci
Hola prim@s,
The San Luis Potosí miscellaneous archives continue to be a great source of information, and not just for known Potosina families!
Manny,
I will give my two cents on the name of Domingo González Maral's mother, and a tentative transcription of the first part of the will.
I think I agree with "de Mona." If you look at the "m" in mona and the "m" in Domingo three lines up, I think they look exactly the same. As to the "o," the writer did not close the o, making it look like a u but neither did he close the o in "Yo," when Domingo said "Sepan quantos ... como yo."
As to the place where the parents were from I think it says: "difuntos vezinos que fueron de la villa de Cubas en los Reynos de Castilla en Portugal." This wording makes sense since Castilla and Portugal were united from 1582-1640, which is when this will was written (1595).
So, the complete first section (with a small portion I could not make out) says:
"En el nombre de nuestro señor Jhesu Xpto y de la siempre virgen maria su madre, sepan quantos esta carta vieren como Yo domingo gonzalez maral ... de san luis minas del potosi de ls nueva España, hijo legitimo de diego gonzalez maral y de doña Ysabel de mona difuntos vezinos que fueron de la villa de Cubas en los Reynos de Castilla en Portugal estando como Estoy enfermo..."
Hope this helps!
Sergio
Thank you, Sergio. Those are the challenges of paleography: not only deciphering chicken scratch, but also trying to “hear” how a 16th century Spanish scribe heard a foreign word. And then, there are the place names that are no longer in use, which is always a possibility.
I finally located the testimony of Domingo Gonzalez from the Alonso Alvarez proceso, which identifies him as the yerno of Martin Monje. It’s dated 24 Apr 1562 in Ameca, Jalisco. Unfortunately, there is no signature to match with the signature on the testamento of Domingo Gonzalez Maral, so we’re still relying upon deductive reasoning, as far as Ines de Leon’s parentage.
I also noticed that in the left image, in the last paragraph of his testimony, witness Luis Montesinos mentions an “Alonso Gutierrez, sobrino de Myn Monge.” That Martin Monje had a nephew living in the area is news to me. Perhaps he’s the son of Juan Gutierrez de Leon cc Catalina Sanchez? FYI, you’ll find other early residents of Ameca and Purificacion appearing as witnesses in that section of the proceso - Juan Fernandez de Hijar and Alvaro Bracamonte, to name a couple.
Saludos,
Manny Díez Hermosillo
How many Alex's are on NR? Geez I hope it not just me...otherwise the pressure is on!
Both requests are tough! Here are some possibilities that I see:
Surname, which may even have cut off letters:
Mona
Niona
City, which again may have cut off letters:
Cubel
Cubiel
Cubes
Cubies
Cubill
That would be the letters transcribed. Then of course the b could be a v, the s could be a z, the c could be a q, in modern spanish etc.
Do you think how "Villa" is spelled looks strange? Like 99% of the time "Villa" is found at that position in the sentance but if you look at "illa" in Castilla in the next line, it looks different than in Villa. Maybe it doesnt say villa and the city is "X de X"?
Tough one!
Alex
Thanks Alex. I also see “de Mona” for the mother’s surname, though “Niona” is an interesting variant. And “villa” does look a little different - looks like he added a third “l.”
As far as the identity of his wife, Inés de León, and trying to link her to Martín Monje cc Isabel Álvarez Corona, I consulted with Sylvia Corona, and she replied, “sobre Domingo González esto es lo que tengo: Nació hacia 1527. En 1556 tal vez en la villa de Colima, ante el escribano Juan de la Torre, Martín Monje, su suegro, vecino de Colima, le otorgó poder a Domingo González, residente en las minas de Guaxacatlán, en lo concerniente a las minas que tenía en el real, para registrar ante cualesquiera justicias, nuevas minas y, también, para poblar y labrar y meter en ellas gente y esclavos que para el dicho efecto Domingo había recibido de Monje. Siendo yerno de éste, prestó declaración en 1557, en Guadalajara, durante el proceso inquisitorial contra Alonso Álvarez de Espinosa. Fuentes: (Romero de Solís, 1999b: N° 46; y Villaseñor Bordes, 1959: 40).”
I looked at Villaseñor Bordes’ “La Inquisición en la Nueva Galicia,” and in the list of witnesses for the proceso against Alonso Álvarez de Espinosa, he names “Domingo González yerno de Martín Monge, de edad de 30 años poco más o menos.”
I read through that proceso - there are actually two folders, 1557 and 1569 - and though I see Domingo González’s name among those of witnesses present during a proclamation, I can’t find the testimony where he talks about Martín Monje giving him poderes, so either I missed it, or there’s a third folder.
Either way, at least we know it’s documented that Martín Monje had a son-in-law named Domingo González, and seeing how Domingo González Maral was married to Inés de León, and their daughters used the surname “Corona,” it’s makes sense that they are the same Domingo González, and that Inés de León would be Martín Monje’s unnamed daughter. She would’ve named for his mother, Inés de Alonso Monje.
Thanks!
Manny Díez Hermosillo
Could it be that the village in Portugal is written as Cubæ and may represent Cuba, Portugal?
Thank you, Glenn. I was thinking Cuba, too, but at first glance, I see “Cuvill” or “Cuvile,” so I’m leaning towards Covilhã, which a Spanish scribe might have written “Cuvilla.” Another possibility is Cubalhão (“Cuvallo” or “Cuvaio”). It’s too bad the scribe didn’t write down the town’s bishopric, which was common in those days. What do you see for his mother’s surname?
Thanks again!
Manny Díez Hermosillo
En España, se celebra el día de la madre el 1 de mayo.
Muchas gracias por compartir. La revise y se ve muy interesante. ¡Buenas fotos!
Un cordial saludo,
Austin Pérez
I'm working with a cousin on his genealogy
One of his ancestors is listed as either first name Quillno or more likely Quilino
Almost positive it was short for Tranquilino
Thanks for everyone's comments
I have a great grand father whose name was Quirino.
I too have seen Quilino as a fist name. Could also be Quirino.
I have seen “Quilino” as an abbreviation of “Aquilino” and “Tranquilino”.
En un par de ocasiones, hemos perdido un miembro de la familia y su viuda desaparecio del mapa; en ocasiones solo con un nombre, en otras solo una ciudad ("Era una americana de Los Angeles.")
Los fundadores de la linea son Macedonia Arellano Alcalá de Gómez (1859–1922) de Santo Cristo Milagroso, Tanhuato de Guerrero, Michoacán y Cenobio Gómez Peña (1860?-1915?) tambien del estado de Michoa
Hello everybody!
Mi tatarabuela Maria Petronila Games Navarro (1836–1902), primer esposa de Don José Bruno Macías Valadéz Muñoz (1851–1915), nació el 30 de mayo de 1836 en Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, México, hija de Antonia y Herculano.
De joven fue novicia, o monja, (posiblemente en el Convento de San Ignacio de las R. R. Monjas de la Enseñanza de Aguascalientes; las fuentes pertinentes son de difícil acceso y esto es conocido solo por tradicion oral.)
Con la Ley de Nacionalización de Bienes Eclesiásticos (12 de Julio de 1859) y la Ley de Exclaustración de Monjas y Frailes (11 agosto de 1859), y la subsecuente supresión de monasterios y la exclaustración de monjas durante la revolución liberal de Benito Juarez (1858-1861) se vio en necesidad de abandonar su convento y dedicarse entonces a la vida laica en febrero de 1863 cuando las monjas enfrentaron la primera exclaustración practicada en el país.
Petra tenia entonces 27 años de edad.
Muchas de estas ex-monjas hicieron labor de maestras o enfermeras.
Dice la tradicion familiar que ella fue quien le enseñó a leer a su esposo Bruno con quien, restaurando hasta donde era posible la vida común, se caso en 1870; ella ya de 34 y el de 18 años de edad.
Tuvieron dos hijos:
Marcelino Macías Valadéz Games (1871–???) nacido el 2 de junio en Aguascalientes, casado con Maria Eufemia Medina Perez, Maria Refugio Oviedo Oviedo y finalmente con Maria Franca de la Soledad Ruiz de Chavez Aguilar, y muere en Aguascalientes.
Jose Jesus Macías Valadéz Games (1873–1873) nacida el 1o. de enero en Aguascalientes y muere de fiebre a los cuatro meses en el Rancho de Los Negritos.
Thank you so much! Yes, he was born in Nochistlán, Zacatecas, and I understand this Parroquia is still part of Diócesis de Guadalajara... He was born in 1877, but I cannot find any burial record, nor death record, nor marriage record... I think it would've been possible for him to be a priest, but I didn't know where to look.
I am definitely going to check these documents, thank you both so very much!
The diocesan archives are your best bet, I think, for finding information on ancestors who were clergy.
Maybe you will get lucky and find them in this booklet of lists of clergyman in the diocese of Valladolid, Nueva España (Morelia). Based on the appearance of a clergyman I have identified on the list, it is from the mid to late 1700's.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-BPS2-S3
The lists contained in the booklet:
You can look for their “ordenes.” If he lived in Nueva Galicia, those can be found in the archives for the Diócesis de Guadalajara. These are the un-indexed records:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/index?owc=3JW2-3TG%3A17193500…
Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Hi Everyone, My name is Elma Esparza Ramos and I am currently researching the Ruiz de Esparza surname. I am at a brick wall with Manuel Antonio Esparza who was maybe born sometimes around 1800-1810.
I've got a couple:
María de Jesús Pérez Esparza
1825 – Deceased
Juliana Esparza
1810 – Deceased
It's not much to go on.
I've got LOTS of multiples of Jesus Perez, and I've also hit a wall after these two.
Hello Elma, I'm new to this but had to respond to your inquiries . I'm related to Manuel Antonio Esparza through marriage of Marcelina Cruz. They had four children listed on my tree . Besides Dionisio ( 1830), they had Santa Maria Esparza born about 1836. One of their children, Herlinda Tenorio Esparza (1/10/1861) born in Rio Grande, Zacatecas married Martin Joaquin Reyes (3/31/1872) in Ojocalientes, Zac. Married on 3/1/1898 in San Juan de Guadalupe, Durango Mexico. Martin's parents were Jesus Reyes (1839) married to Rosario Amador on May 20, 1866 in Ojocalientes, Zac. My maternal lineage comes from Rosario's father, Francisco Amador married to Michaela Lopez. Also note that Manuel Antonio had a grandson by the name of Dionisio Esparza born on 04/08/1859 and died 08/22/1898 in San Juan de Guadalupe, Durango Mexico. That is as far as I had gone for now. I will do more research on this. Cecilia
Let me add that Santa Maria married Amada Tenorio (8/21/1839), her parents were Francisco Tenorio de Alva Sanchez and Ygnacia Castrellon Montelongo.
So glad to hear from someone that has my family in their tree too. I have the information that you mentioned. I dont think I had found any information on Herlinda Esparza Tenorio and its good to hear that. I will take a look at that info. Right now, I am doing extensive search in Rio Grande, Zacatecas, since this is where most of the records that I found says, they came from. So far, the Esparza's that would be close to Manuel Antonio's age all come to a halt. At least they probably were not from this area. Some of Santa Maria's children mentioned them being born in Sain Alto, so that is where I am going next. My brother's ydna matched to a Jose Luis Ruiz de Esparza and his father Rafael are from Gomez Palacio, Durango, maybe that is where we need to go. He told me that most of the esparza's do go back to this line. Thank you for your thoughts. Most of the info on family search is from me and my sister. There is another user that I think is also trying to find her Esparza family and is digging thru all the Esparza's found. I think her family goes to Olayo Esparza and Antonia Aguilar. Thank you Ms. Cecilia.
por que todo lo escribes en ingles si estamos buscando datos de nuestros antepasados en mexico y tu debes hablar español que no? saludos.
Holo Leohomo, escribo en ingles porque es mas facil para mi y ellos me contestaron en ingles. Mi primer lenguaje fue espanol, pero creci y naci en Laredo, Texas. No sabes leer el Ingles? O sera mas facil para ti el Espanol. De cual quier modo, saludos tambien.
Hello Elma,
I saw your thread and thought I'd let you know that there is a Ruiz de Esparza surname in New Mexico circa early 1800, maybe late 1700s. Since the surname is not that common, maybe, there is a connection. The progenitor of the line in New Mexico appears to be a Teodoro Ruiz de Esparza and spouse, Josefa Angulo in, I believe, Santa Fe, NM. I have a distant cousin researching the surname and his brick wall is Teodoro Ruiz de Esparza. He can't go back any further.
Feel free to contact me and I'll put you in touch with mi primo.
SC Sexton
Hello Stephanie,
José Teodoro Ruiz De Esparza and Maria Josefa Ángulo did have children in New Mexico. But Jose Teodoro Ruiz De Esparza was originally from Aguascalientes. Maria Josefa was originally from Toluca. The records states that there was a dispensation so there is hope that the dispensation will be found and shed more information on this couple. Jose Teodoro and María Josefa were married in Durango.
Here is their marriage record:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6SN2-JL?i=327&cc=15545…
Here is the baptismal record of their son Manuel Ruiz De Esparza
Jose Manuel Matheo Ruis De Esparza
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 22 Jun 1817
Christening Place: PURISIMA CONCEPCION-CATHOLIC, TOME, VALENCIA, NEW MEXICO
Father's Name: Teodoro Ruis De Esparza
Mother's Name: Josefa Angulo
Dear Elma,
You have not provided information on Dionicio Ruiz De Esparza that will help connect him to his ancestors. Please provide more information. There is a Dionicio Ruiz De Esparza in Texas that was born circa 1880 to Ramon Ruiz De Esparza and Petra Lerma. Is this the same Dionicio Ruiz De Esparza that you are writing about?
Here is a census record with Dionicio Ruiz De Estrada son of Ramon and Petra:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GYB8-9865?i=5&cc=14176…
Here are some other records with similar names but in Oaxaca at a later date than what you mentioned:
Manuel Antonio Ruiz
Spouse's Name: Ma. Marcilina Cruz
Event Date: 26 May 1847
Event Place: San Matias Jalatlaco,Jalatlaco-Oaxaca,Oaxaca,Mexico
Rick A. Ricci
Dionicio Esparza is not the son of Ramon Ruiz de esparza and Petra Lerma. His father is Manuel Antonio Esparza and Maria Marcelina Cruz, there is a record for one of Dionicio's son, that was born in Sabinas Hidalgo and it mentions the grandparents as being Manuel Esparza and Marcelina Cruz. That is all that I have for him. Have not found a birth or baptism for him, no death record in Laredo, Texas, since he arrive somewhere in the 1880's. I thank you for taking the time to answer my posts and I appreciate that.
Thank You
Elma Esparza Ramos
The line is getting closer to the Ruiz De Esparza in Nueva Galicia as we have now traced Manuel Antonio Esparza to Zacatecas.
María Marcelina Cruz is the daughter of Lazaro De la Cruz and Petra Contreras
Check out this family tree where you will find more sources to look for more clues.
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/LVHQ-6P5
Hi R.A. Ricci
That link you just gave me is my tree. I already have that information. I will keep looking though and thank you for searching.
Please let me know if you connect Manuel Esparza to the Ruiz De Esparza family in Aguascalientes.
Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci
Hi there, I have not seen or found any families in New Mexico, but there is always a first time. I think we did have a ydna from someone in New Mexico. I would like to hear from your cousin, anytime. Thank your post reading my thread and responding. I appreciate it.
Elma Esparza Ramos
I was just curious myself as I do have Ruiz de Velasco and Esparsa in my
family tree.
I did find Teodoro Ruiz de Esparza and Maria Josefa Angulo's marriage.
Teodoro originated in Aguascalientes, Mexico and Josefa originated in
Toluca, Mexico. They were married 9 September 1811, in El Sagrario
Metropolitano, Victoria de Durango, Durango, Mexico, Information found in
Mexio marriages (1570-1950) Catholic Church Records, 1604-1985, Durango,
Marriages 1796-1820, Image 328, Pg. 185, film 654842.
Esther Jordan Lopez
esther@enhanced.org
On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:35 PM wrote:
> Hi there, I have not seen or found any families in New Mexico, but there is
> always a first time. I think we did have a ydna from someone in New
> Mexico. I
> would like to hear from your cousin, anytime. Thank your post reading my
> thread and responding. I appreciate it. Elma Esparza Ramos
>
Is anyone else researching these surnames around Zacatecas and Aguascalientes: CAMINO, LOPEZ, LIZALDE, GARCIA, VASQUEZ, VELASCO, FRAUSTO, FLORES, SOTO, SOLIS, ESPARZA, DIAZ, OROPEZA, MARTINEZ, DURAN.
I have the following in my data base
Jose Vital Magallanas
born 10 July 1780 - Tepechitlan, Zac
Married 15 July 1816 - Tlaltenango, Zac
film 443971 batch M607143
spouse: Guadalupe Lopez de Oropresa
her parents: Captain Antonio Lopez de Oropesa
Andrea San Roman
Jose Vital Magallanas and Guadalupe Lopez de Oropesa - I found 8 children...all born in Tlaltenango
I had a copy of their marriage record that listed Captain Antonio Lopez de Oropesa from some order. About a year ago, I sent all the documents to a Magallanas cousin in Tlaltenango, as Vital is on his line.
Hope this information helps.
Helyn
mormonboy74 wrote:
Is anyone else researching these surnames around Zacatecas and Aguascalientes: CAMINO, LOPEZ, LIZALDE, GARCIA, VASQUEZ, VELASCO, FRAUSTO, FLORES, SOTO, SOLIS, ESPARZA, DIAZ, OROPEZA, MARTINEZ, DURAN.
Hi
I am researching Martinez in Aguascalientes, especially Esteban and Panfila. I think I have another name or two, I will post it here.
John
Santos Luna wrote:
Re: Lopez de Oropesa
I have the following in my data base
Jose Vital Magallanas
born 10 July 1780 - Tepechitlan, Zac
Married 15 July 1816 - Tlaltenango, Zac
film 443971 batch M607143
spouse: Guadalupe Lopez de Oropresa
her parents: Captain Antonio Lopez de Oropesa
Andrea San Roman
Jose Vital Magallanas and Guadalupe Lopez de Oropesa - I found 8 children...all born in Tlaltenango
I had a copy of their marriage record that listed Captain Antonio Lopez de Oropesa from some order. About a year ago, I sent all the documents to a Magallanas cousin in Tlaltenango, as Vital is on his line.
Hope this information helps.
Helyn
mormonboy74 wrote:
Is anyone else researching these surnames around Zacatecas and Aguascalientes: CAMINO, LOPEZ, LIZALDE, GARCIA, VASQUEZ, VELASCO, FRAUSTO, FLORES, SOTO, SOLIS, ESPARZA, DIAZ, OROPEZA, MARTINEZ, DURAN.
I am also searching for Garcia and Esparza and Duran from Jalisco and Aguascalientes, also Flores and Soto from Zacatecas. Type in my name in the group's search field or go to "files" or "gedcom".
Emilie Garcia
Port Orchard, WA ---
----- Original Message -----
From: mormonboy74
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 8:59 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Surnames-from ZACATECAS, AGUASCALIENTES
Is anyone else researching these surnames around Zacatecas and Aguascalientes: CAMINO, LOPEZ, LIZALDE, GARCIA, VASQUEZ, VELASCO, FRAUSTO, FLORES, SOTO, SOLIS, ESPARZA, DIAZ, OROPEZA, MARTINEZ, DURAN.
Hello, I am researching the surname Lopez -specifically from Rancho Lo de Carrera, Tenayuca, Zacatecas.
Lisa G
I am researching the surname Diaz from Momax, Zacatecas.
Tony Diaz
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from U.S. Cellular
-----Original Message-----
From: mormonboy74
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 08:59:28
To:research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Surnames-from ZACATECAS, AGUASCALIENTES
Is anyone else researching these surnames around Zacatecas and Aguascalientes: CAMINO, LOPEZ, LIZALDE, GARCIA, VASQUEZ, VELASCO, FRAUSTO, FLORES, SOTO, SOLIS, ESPARZA, DIAZ, OROPEZA, MARTINEZ, DURAN.
Hi Tony. I am researching several last names in Aguascalientes, including
Lopez, Elizalde, Esparza, Martínez, Sotomayor and many others, mostly in
17th & 18th century church records. No information on Camino, Solis,
Oropesa, Frausto and Duran.
Bill Figueroa
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Diaz"
To:
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Surnames-from ZACATECAS, AGUASCALIENTES
>I am researching the surname Diaz from Momax, Zacatecas.
>
> Tony Diaz
> Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from U.S. Cellular
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mormonboy74
> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 08:59:28
> To:research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Surnames-from ZACATECAS, AGUASCALIENTES
>
>
> Is anyone else researching these surnames around Zacatecas and
> Aguascalientes: CAMINO, LOPEZ, LIZALDE, GARCIA, VASQUEZ, VELASCO, FRAUSTO,
> FLORES, SOTO, SOLIS, ESPARZA, DIAZ, OROPEZA, MARTINEZ, DURAN.
I have a few of those in my family tree/Pedigree...my 2nd Paternal Great Grandfather was Atanasio Saldivar Duran and a few of those other surnames are connected through my Duran surname. My 2nd GG was from Monte De Yanez, Nochistlan.
you need to get specific. The questions are too general in nature. Ask
the questions again but give us the specific areas in Jalisco,
Zacatecas, and/or Aguascalientes that your family comes from. Or if you
think that maybe they came from the surrounding areas then include those
areas in your question.
You can go to the files area of the group and into the members
genealogies. Look next to the indivuduals names for a location that
interests you and then open that folder. It should give a list of
surnames they are researching in those areas. Hopefully you'll find
someone and can contact them. Even if they aren't researching your
specific surnames contact them anyway as the chances are they have seen
your surnames or some of those surnames have married into their families.
Narrowing down your question will help.
thanks,
joseph
===================
Joseph Puentes
http://H2Opodcast.com (Environment Podcast)
http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com (Latin American History)
mormonboy74 wrote:
> Is anyone else researching these surnames around Zacatecas and Aguascalientes: CAMINO, LOPEZ, LIZALDE, GARCIA, VASQUEZ, VELASCO, FRAUSTO, FLORES, SOTO, SOLIS, ESPARZA, DIAZ, OROPEZA, MARTINEZ, DURAN.
I've got a couple:
María de Jesús Pérez Esparza
1825 – Deceased
Juliana Esparza
1810 – Deceased
It's not much to go on.
I've got LOTS of multiples of Jesus Perez, and I've found it impossible to move beyond these two.
I posted three ancestral lines of the "Padilla" family of "Los Altos de Jalisco."
One line shows the paternal line starting with Mateos Davila.
I am also working on the Padilla family from Los Altos de Jalisco, with a focus on Don José Guadalupe Padilla de la Torre (1861–1929) and Pedro Alfonso Padilla Gilbert (1914–1983) both born in rancho Tres Palos, (in Arandas according to some, and San Ignacio, Cerro Gordo according to others) whose sister Rita Padilla De La Torre married into the Medina Ascencio family.
Hello German,
I have many Padilla lines in my family. I descend from Macedonio De La Torre Padilla and my great grandmother had a first marriage to a Padilla so my dad has many first cousins that are Padilla Franco. On my moms side I also descend from Padilla from both maternal grandparents. My maternal grandfather was born in San Ignacio, Cerro Gordo.
Saludos,
Rick A. Ricci
The lopez part of the surname could have come from being named after an uncle, or it could have come from the "Lope" ancestors from his Martinez de Leiva side of the family. I wont know if Baron's tree is accurate until I can check his sources.
There was a Lope de Padilla member of the family that died in his late 20's or early 30's. I have a suspicion that he belongs in the line and that he was skipped over in the family line with his son being raised by hjs grandfather. That would explain a discrepancy that I found in a document. I need to do more research to clear this up.
Rick A. Ricci
Is your book now available for purchase?
Hi Olga,
I would love to have a finished book available for you. Unfortunately I think that there is an added generation that we need to add to Baron's work on generations 1 through IX. I believe that Baron skipped a generation so I want to research his work before I commit it to a book. I believe that he skipped Lope de Padilla. I understand that mistakes creep into the best books, but I am determined to go over all the material before I submit the final product.
Rick A. Ricci
Thank you for the update on your book. I respect your work and am looking forward to the book's release.
annallison
Thank you for your kind words. I found many inconsistencies in Baron’s claims on the Padilla family so I am not including his work. I believe that Baron has merged the López de Padilla and Garcia de Padilla lines. The two lines are related, but how closely related they are is not clear to me.
I will be including some new information that I just found today. In researching my Padilla line, I discovered that George Washington, first president of the United States of America is a 13th cousin of mine. I haven’t yet figured out how many times removed.
It is “finds” like this that keep me from finishing the book because I keep adding information to it.
Thank you again,
Rick A. Ricci
My biological father was Lugo.
Read
Mission San Diego de Alcalá California
Bautismos 1822-1855
Temple, Thomas Workman, II, et al
found on FamilySearch.
There are LOTS of Lugos in the Alta California Missions and Presidios.
I have Lugo in my ancestry. And there is most likely a slave connection, but not as a trader. My Lugo ancestor is a “mulato libre” living in the early 1700’s. My ancestry DNA results do not show this African ancestry as it seems that it contributed less than 1% of my DNA. My Lugo ancestor is from Teocaltiche, Jalisco, Mexico. Some Lugo family members were originally Fernández de Lugo.
Rick
Hi tocayo,
I also have Lugo from Teocaltiche, who is your ancestor?
I descend from Tomas de Lugo and his wife Maria Teresa de Jesus Tejeda, through their daughter Maria Josefa Gertrudis. Here is her marriage in Jalos:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-XY8N-F?i=60&cc=1874591
I do not have very much info on them, only the marriage of another duaghter.
Saludos,
Richard
Hola Tacayo and primo,
I also descend from Josepha Gertudis Lugo, twice, through my father and mother. And I have to make a correction, It was her husband Jph. Justo Gutierrez that was a mulato. María Josepha Gertrudis Lugo was an “española.”
I descend from their son, Pedro Justo Gutierrez y Lugo baptized 7/feb/1753 in Jalostotitlán.
Pedro Jose Gutierrez married Maria de la Merced Saines De Santiago. Their daughter, Felipa (Feliciana) Gutierrez married José María Gomez and had at least two daughters. My father descends from one of the daughters, Justa Rufina Gomez Gutierrez and my mother descends from the other daughter, Maria de la Trinidad Gómez Gutierrez.
I would like to hear how you descend from Maria Josepha Gertrudis Lugo.
Saludos,
Rick
A few of us have researched families from that area, and would be happy to help you learn more. Could you share with us more information? Names of ancestors?
Como se podra observar, las ramas de Felipe Perez y Juliana Esparza estan incompletas. Desgraciadamente se me han acabado las pistas, y no me es posible continuarlas.
Hola mi nombre es Ruben Alcala Delgado.
Busco informasion sobre el apellido Alcala, desendientes de Agustin Alcala y Atanacia de la Cruz.
Agustin Alcala nacio en Hujucar Jalisco o tal vez en Valparaiso Zac.
I'm afraid my Spanish is bad, my apologies..
I have Alcala family that has one record for the area of Valparaiso even though his siblings say they are from Fresnillo and Lavor de Marquez, Jerez Zacatecas. The records have them as Mulato, Mestiso and Espanol so take your pick but this is the one that says he is from Valparaiso. Some records say Alcala and some say Alcalan, Julian's brother Tiburcio Alcala is my direct ancestor through is son Marcial Alcala, his childrens records say Espanol!
Marriage information recorded 18 Jan 1794 in Jerez
Jose Julian Alcalan, Mulato Libre age 20 from Valle de Valparaiso 8 years ago
Parents: Juan Seferino Alcalan and Maria Francisca Serrano
With: Maria Ylaria, India age 20 from Pueblo de Mesquintique 13 years
Ago
Parents: Maria Ysavel de la Lus, father unknown
Witness: Juan de Santiago Rodrigues, Mulato Libre age 30, vecino
Witness: Juan de San Pedro, Mulato Libre age 60, vecino
Witness: Julian Rito, Mulato Libre age 40 vecino
source: 0439899 marriage information
I also have many records for Spaniards named Alcala in Michoacan in the later 1600's. My records are posted on Rootsweb.com
Linda in Everett
--- On Tue, 3/17/09, Ruben Alcala Delgado wrote:
From: Ruben Alcala Delgado
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Apellido ALCALA
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 10:13 AM
Hola mi nombre es Ruben Alcala Delgado.
Busco informasion sobre el apellido Alcala, desendientes de Agustin Alcala y
Atanacia de la Cruz.
Agustin Alcala nacio en Hujucar Jalisco o tal vez en Valparaiso Zac. al rededor
the 1785.
First of all thank you for responding to my post, for the last 4-5 years I have been resurging the web for records for the Alcala within Zacatecas and Jalisco.
I have records of seven generations including my sons, I would like to go one more level I am searching for any information on Agusting Alcala born around 1785.
Thank you
Ruben Alcala
> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 11:55:29 -0700
> From: longsjourney@yahoo.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Apellido ALCALA
>
> I'm afraid my Spanish is bad, my apologies..
>
> I have Alcala family that has one record for the area of Valparaiso even though his siblings say they are from Fresnillo and Lavor de Marquez, Jerez Zacatecas. The records have them as Mulato, Mestiso and Espanol so take your pick but this is the one that says he is from Valparaiso. Some records say Alcala and some say Alcalan, Julian's brother Tiburcio Alcala is my direct ancestor through is son Marcial Alcala, his childrens records say Espanol!
>
> Marriage information recorded 18 Jan 1794 in Jerez
> Jose Julian Alcalan, Mulato Libre age 20 from Valle de Valparaiso 8 years ago
> Parents: Juan Seferino Alcalan and Maria Francisca Serrano
> With: Maria Ylaria, India age 20 from Pueblo de Mesquintique 13 years
> Ago
> Parents: Maria Ysavel de la Lus, father unknown
> Witness: Juan de Santiago Rodrigues, Mulato Libre age 30, vecino
> Witness: Juan de San Pedro, Mulato Libre age 60, vecino
> Witness: Julian Rito, Mulato Libre age 40 vecino
> source: 0439899 marriage information
>
> I also have many records for Spaniards named Alcala in Michoacan in the later 1600's. My records are posted on Rootsweb.com
>
> Linda in Everett
>
> --- On Tue, 3/17/09, Ruben Alcala Delgado wrote:
>
> From: Ruben Alcala Delgado
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Apellido ALCALA
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 10:13 AM
>
> Hola mi nombre es Ruben Alcala Delgado.
> Busco informasion sobre el apellido Alcala, desendientes de Agustin Alcala y
> Atanacia de la Cruz.
> Agustin Alcala nacio en Hujucar Jalisco o tal vez en Valparaiso Zac. al rededor
> the 1785.
Ruben, be sure to check under Alcalan too since I've found half my Alcala line that way..
Good luck in your search,
Linda in Everett
--- On Wed, 3/18/09, Ruben Alcala wrote:
From: Ruben Alcala
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Apellido ALCALA
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 1:09 PM
First of all thank you for responding to my post, for the last 4-5 years I have
been resurging the web for records for the Alcala within Zacatecas and Jalisco.
I have records of seven generations including my sons, I would like to go one
more level I am searching for any information on Agusting Alcala born around
1785.
Thank you
Ruben Alcala
My great-grandmother is Macedonia Arellano Alcalá viuda de Gómez (1859–1922) de Santo Cristo Milagroso, Tanhuato de Guerrero, Michoacán.
Hello, my name is Gustavo Carrillo. I have been researching my
Carrillo lineage for some time now. I'm also glad for the
opportunity of joining this group. Even though most of my ancestors
I am also Macias Valadez (from Aguascalientes) and found this blog very useful:
https://historiasdeencarnacion.blogspot.com/2010/07/4-el-sauz-de-los-ma…
I still don't know how to share files, but I've got a Macias Valadez family report of my own. If I can figure how to share it I will gladly send it to you.
Are you connected to Pablo Centeno, married to Dominga Almeida, parents of Maria Gabriela Centeno? Citation: "México, Zacatecas, registros parroquiales, 1605-1980," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-BM8J-2?cc=1804458&wc=3P9B-… : 21 May 2014), Ojo Caliente > Ojo Caliente > Información matrimonial 1800-1801 > image 215 of 351; paróquias Católicas, Zacatecas (Catholic Church parishes, Zacatecas).
weblink: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-BM8J-2?cc=1804458&wc=3P9B-…
I am trying to find info on this Dominga Almeida's family and would appreciate your help if possible.
Thanks,
Rick
Bienvenido Gustavo.
Espero que efectivamente obtengas lo que buscas en este grupo. Recibe
mis cordiales saludos y cuenta conmigo como tu atento y seguro
servidor.
Israel Valles
Gomez Palacio, Durango, Mexico
2011/6/16, sr92809@sbcglobal.net :
> Hello, my name is Gustavo Carrillo. I have been researching my
> Carrillo lineage for some time now. I'm also glad for the
> opportunity of joining this group. Even though most of my ancestors
> lived in northern Jalisco, I recently learned that one of them
> Marcos Carrillo, came from Jerez, Zacatecas. He married Petra
> Bermudes and moved to Cartagenas in Totatiche, Jalisco around
> 1760. I have been searching for his marriage record without any
> luck. I believe he married in Jerez,Zacatecas between 1740-1750.
> I want to find out who his parents were but the records I have
> found on his children don't give information on grandparents.
> If anyone could give me any information I would be very grateful.
> Thanks Gustavo.
I checked my records but found nothing for Marcos and Petra but will watch.. my
records are on Rootsweb.com. file is called Mexico
good luck in your search. I've found Bermudez, Velmudes, Bermudes the hardest
family to research because of the many surname spellings.
good luck in your search.
Linda Castanon-Long
________________________________
From: "sr92809@sbcglobal.net"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, June 16, 2011 5:18:19 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] New Member Introduction
Hello, my name is Gustavo Carrillo. I have been researching my
Carrillo lineage for some time now. I'm also glad for the opportunity of joining
this group. Even though most of my ancestors
lived in northern Jalisco, I recently learned that one of them
Marcos Carrillo, came from Jerez, Zacatecas. He married Petra
Bermudes and moved to Cartagenas in Totatiche, Jalisco around
1760. I have been searching for his marriage record without any
luck. I believe he married in Jerez,Zacatecas between 1740-1750.
I want to find out who his parents were but the records I have found on his
children don't give information on grandparents.
If anyone could give me any information I would be very grateful.
Thanks Gustavo. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
To post, send email to:
research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
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http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
Hello
For purposes of introduction, my name is Paul Centeno. My father and I have
been researching our family genealogy for quite a long time. My father¹s
cousin managed to trace the Centeno family back over seven generations, and
has provided us with official records. My grandfather was Valente Centeno
(1881), then Tomas Centeno (1853), Juan (1826), Jose Antonio Abad (1790),
Jose Ramon (1752), Jose Felix , Jose Matias (1688), Jacinto (1654). On the
maternal side we have traced the Reynosos back until 1610. All of these
families began in Celaya and Aguascalientes, but most recently lived in
Union de San Antonio, San Juan de los Lagos, San Miguel el Alto, and San
Julian, Jalisco. Other names predominant in my family tree are:
Padilla-Davila, Lozano, Marquez, Aldrete, de Hermosillo, Ruiz de Esparza,
Romo de Vivar. I am interested in located data which will trace the Centeno
name back to Diego, who we believe was the first Centeno in Mexico. I have
many documents that have been handed down to me which could possibly help
others who are tracing family histories from the areas of which I spoke, and
looking for the surnames I mentioned above
Hello Paul,
I can't help with your Centeno line but I might be of help on some of the
other lines since I looked at your file. We are related through a lot of the
families you mentioned and a few more. However, I believe our closest link
is through Villalobos. I'll explain why I believe this.
In the marriage entry of Anastacio Gutíerrez Garcia to María Josefa de Soto
y Romo de Vivar in Lagos de Moreno it states that he is from [Hacienda] El
Carrizo and she is from [Hacienda] La Mesa [Redonda] de los Villalobos.
http://gw0.geneanet.org/index.php3?b=arman212_w&lang=es;p=anastacio;n=g…
In the marriage entry of the parents of Anastacio, Juan Antonio Soto Mayor
Villalobos to María Francisca Romo de Vivar y Gallardo it states he is the
from [Hacienda] La Mesa Redonda and the son of son of Joseph de Soto Mayor
and Mariana Villalobos.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/show#uri=https%3A//api.family…
In almost all of the baptisms and marriages of the brothers and sisters of
Juan Antonio Soto Mayor Villalobos they are mentioned as being from La Mesa.
Based on that fact plus the names of some of the godparents in some of the
records it seems their mother was named as María Sebastiana Villalobos in
her marriage record instead of María Ana as she is named in all of the other
documents. In that marriage record it states she is from La Mesa and the
daughter of Andrés de Villalobos and Catarina Zermeño de Anda [Altamirano].
https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/show#uri=https%3A//api.family…
last two married 11 Feb 1711 in Lagos de Moreno. In his second
marriage to María Guadalupe de Soto Mayor it states he is from La Mesa.
Andrés was the son of Salvador de Villalobos Macías Valadez and Angela de
Ayala Cortez and was baptized 21 Dec 1677 in Aguascalientes. Salvador and
Angela married 14 Nov 1672 in Aguascalientes. Salvador was the son of Tomás
de Villalobos y Pérez de Nava and Catarina Macías Valadez y Villegas. Tomás
was the son of Cristóbal de Villalobos San Clares and María Pérez de Nava.
Cristóbal de Villalobos was originally from Spain and the progenitor of the
majority of the Villalobos in Los Altos and Aguascalientes. Our common
ancestor is Salvador de Villalobos Macías Valadez if María Ana (Mariana) and
María Sebastiana are the same person. There is a marriage that had a
dispensation that might prove they are the same person if the información
matrimonial or the dispensation is found. Ana Petra Soto Villalobos and
Ignacio Sanromán were married 24 Nov 1779 in Lagos and in the entry it
states they had a dispensation for cuarto grado de consanguinidad.
Another family that is incomplete in your file is that of José Pablo Lozano
González. His mother was María González y Rubio and her parents were Joseph
Gil González y Rubio and Antonia Gertrudis de la Mota y Padilla. The father
of José Pablo was José María Lozano López who was the son of Joseph Ignacio
Lozano Lozano and Juana María Anselma López de Nava Martín del Campo married
in 1761. Joseph Ignacio was the son of Joaquín Lozano Enríquez and Mariana
Lozano Galván married in 1728. Joaquín was the son of Pedro Lozano Gutiérrez
de Mendoza and Beatriz Enríquez del Castillo. Pedro was the son of José
Lozano González de Rubalcava and Josefa Gutiérrez de Mendoza y Camacho
Riquelme married in 1668. José was the son of Jacinto de Lozano González de
Isla and Juana González de Rubalcava y Rodas married in 1632. Jacinto was
the son of Cristóbal de Lozano Martinez and María González de Isla.
I have a lot more info on the Villalobos and Lozano families I can send to
you in a file if you would like for me to send it to you.
Regards,
Armando
On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 10:17 AM, Paul Centeno wrote:
> Hello
>
> For purposes of introduction, my name is Paul Centeno. My father and I have
> been researching our family genealogy for quite a long time. My father¹s
> cousin managed to trace the Centeno family back over seven generations, and
> has provided us with official records. My grandfather was Valente Centeno
> (1881), then Tomas Centeno (1853), Juan (1826), Jose Antonio Abad (1790),
> Jose Ramon (1752), Jose Felix , Jose Matias (1688), Jacinto (1654). On the
> maternal side we have traced the Reynosos back until 1610. All of these
> families began in Celaya and Aguascalientes, but most recently lived in
> Union de San Antonio, San Juan de los Lagos, San Miguel el Alto, and San
> Julian, Jalisco. Other names predominant in my family tree are:
> Padilla-Davila, Lozano, Marquez, Aldrete, de Hermosillo, Ruiz de Esparza,
> Romo de Vivar. I am interested in located data which will trace the
> Centeno
> name back to Diego, who we believe was the first Centeno in Mexico. I have
> many documents that have been handed down to me which could possibly help
> others who are tracing family histories from the areas of which I spoke,
> and
> looking for the surnames I mentioned above
>
>
hello my name is katherine brecht. i signed up for neutros ranchos in order to see if i can find more information about my mom's side of the family(her maiden name is quesada, and her parents were born and raised in jerez, zacatecas)
i have already done some of my own research on her side of the family. i'm also willing to help out other members too.
i am taking this over for my mom since she has been to busy to work on her family tree. i also occasionally help me dad out with side of the family(my dad's a white-american, hence my last name).
what names in Jerez and what years are you talking abt.. I also research Jerez and have found most Quezadas were from Huejucar, Jalisco
Linda in Everett
________________________________
From: katy brecht
To: "research@nuestrosranchos.org"
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 3:51 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] introduction
hello my name is katherine brecht. i signed up for neutros ranchos in order to see if i can find more information about my mom's side of the family(her maiden name is quesada, and her parents were born and raised in jerez, zacatecas)
i have already done some of my own research on her side of the family. i'm also willing to help out other members too.
i am taking this over for my mom since she has been to busy to work on her family tree. i also occasionally help me dad out with side of the family(my dad's a white-american, hence my last name).
katherine brecht- yes my quezada ancestors orginally came from huejucar also. but for some reason. my mom's granapa jose manule quezada moved jerez, then his wife gave birth to my maternfather jos manuel quesada(quezada) jr. in jerez
what year was your grandfather born in Jerez? What your your grandfathers Mothers surname? Did your grandfather marry in Jerez?
________________________________
From: "detective1920@yahoo.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] introduction
katherine brecht- yes my quezada ancestors orginally came from huejucar also. but for some reason. my mom's granapa jose manule quezada moved jerez, then his wife gave birth to my maternfather jos manuel quesada(quezada) jr. in jerez
he was born in jerez in the year 1941. his mother's name was guadelupe Banuelos.
My name is Raul Bracamonte Munoz and I'm thrilled to be a new member of the Nuestros Ranchos familia.
While my research takes me to many places within northern Mexico, a key focus area for me is Villa de Cos and the surrounding haciendas. I also have an interest in Jerez, Fresnillo, and the city of Zacatecas.
Within these areas of Zacatecas, the primary family names I am researching are: Munoz, Vasquez del Mercado, Rodriguez and Sanchez.
Before 1850, I also have an interest in Rodarte, Gonzalez de Solis, Martinez de Orosco, Ruiz de Chavez, Caldera, Romo de Vivar, Carrion, Delgadillo, Castrejon, Campa y Cos, de Avila, and Marin.
Please feel free to review my folder with descendant charts that include many of these names.
When researching film, I typically concentrate on older files that have not been indexed. So if you would like me to keep an eye open for family members you may be researching, please feel free to let me know.
I'd also like to note that I only place individuals in my family tree if I have direct and conclusive evidence that supports the relationship. Happy to show my work if there are any questions regarding individuals found in my files. There are a few exceptions within the Rodarte family.
Other than familysearch.org and ancestry.com, if anyone can recommend any other sites that provide records for my focus area, please let me know.
Thank you.
Raul
Hello list,
I joined this group several weeks back and have enjoyed reading your postings since then. My name is Michael Lopez, I live in San Diego County, I am recently retired and have decided to search for some genealogical history on my parents now that I have the time. My family of origin was "different" than most families in the sense that my parents came to America without any other family and never went back. Hence, I grew up without ever meeting any grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. My children gave me a xmas gift of participating in National Geographic's genographic project and I have become fascinated with the whole idea of genealogy and DNA. In any event here is what I know about my mother. Maria de Jesus Bravo was born in 1906 at a small ranchito named El Zapote, which was located about a mile or so outside the small village of La Ribera, Jalisco. La Rivera Jalisco is immediately adjacent to Yurecuaro, Michoacan and are separated by the Rio Lerma. So while mom
Saludos Mike,
welcome to the group and please do ask your questions. Now I haven't
looked into it and can't say one way or the other if your mom was
baptized in Jalisco or Michoacan, but it makes sense if that was the
closest place where she would have been taken. Now mind you if you go
and get some of these films and it turns out that your mom doesn't turn
up in the records just buckle up and keep searching in the next closest
location that has records. Anyway here are the films you can order from
your closest Family History Center there in San Diego. As always if any
of this is unclear just ask your specific questions. . .who knows but
someone might know the answer:
Title
Registros parroquiales, 1768-1932
Authors
Iglesia Católica. Santa María (Yurécuaro, Michoacán) (Main Author)
Notes
Microfilme de manuscritos en el archivo de la parroquia y el archivo
diocesano de Zamora.
Microfilmes de 16 mm. son de reducción alta (42x).
Catholic parish registers of baptisms, confirmations, marriages,
marriage petitions, and deaths from Yurécuaro, Michoacán, Mexico.
Subjects
México, Michoacán, Yurécuaro - Church records
Format
Manuscript (On Film)
Language
Spanish
Publication
Salt Lake City, Utah : Filmados por la Sociedad Genealógica de Utah,
1965-2002
Physical
en 34 carretes de microfilme ; 35 mm., 16 mm.
Film Notes
Note - Location [Film]
Bautismos 1768-1778 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706427 ]
Bautismos 1778-1802 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706428 ]
Bautismos 1790-1814 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706429 ]
Bautismos 1806-1844 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706430 ]
Bautismos 1844-1858 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706431 ]
Bautismos 1858-1879 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706432 ]
Bautismos 1879-1889 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706433 ]
Bautismos 1889-1899 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706434 ]
Bautismos 1899-1908 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706435 ]<----------------------
Confirmaciones 1869-1914 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706436 ]
Matrimonios 1768-1788,1791-1868 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706437 ]
Matrimonios 1868-1920 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706438 ]
Información matrimonial 1778-1780 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706439 ]
Información matrimonial 1780-1783 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706440 ]
Información matrimonial 1783-1785,1787-1790 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706441 ]
Información matrimonial 1790-1804 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706442 ]
Información matrimonial 1793-1802 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706443 ]
Información matrimonial 1802-1818 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706444 ]
Información matrimonial 1854-1864,1867-1870 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706445 ]
Información matrimonial 1870-1878 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706446 ]
Información matrimonial 1878-1885 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706447 ]
Información matrimonial 1885-1893 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706448 ]
Información matrimonial 1893-1897 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706449 ]
Información matrimonial 1897-1902 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706450 ]
Información matrimonial 1903-1905 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706451 ]
Defunciones 1768-1785 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706452 ]
Defunciones 1785-1834 - FHL INTL Film [ 706453 ]
Defunciones 1824-1865 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706454 ]
Defunciones 1865-1890 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706455 ]
Defunciones 1890-1904 - VAULT INTL Film [ 706456 ]
Bautismos v. 22-31 1908-1931 (v. 26 incluye 9 páginas de actas de la
capellanía de Monteleón de 1914) - VAULT INTL Film [ 1855674 Items 1-10 ]
Confirmaciones v. 1-2 1922-1925 - VAULT INTL Film [ 1855674 Items 11-12 ]
Matrimonios v. 8-9 1920-1932 - VAULT INTL Film [ 1855674 Items 13-14 ]
Informaciones matrimoniales 1905-1911 - VAULT INTL Film [ 1855674 Items
15-16 ]
Informaciones matrimoniales v. 34-44 1911-1924 - VAULT INTL Film [
1855675 ]
Informaciones matrimoniales v. 45-47 1924-1928, 1930 - VAULT INTL Film
[ 1855676 Items 1-3 ]
Defunciones 1904-1926 - VAULT INTL Film [ 1855676 Item 4 ]
Información matrimonial 1872, 1916, 1917, 1922, 1923-1926 - FHL INTL
Film [ 2244715 Items 14 - 15 ]
© 2002 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved.
Mike Bernard Lopez wrote:
>Hello list,
> I joined this group several weeks back and have enjoyed reading your postings since then. My name is Michael Lopez, I live in San Diego County, I am recently retired and have decided to search for some genealogical history on my parents now that I have the time. My family of origin was "different" than most families in the sense that my parents came to America without any other family and never went back. Hence, I grew up without ever meeting any grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. My children gave me a xmas gift of participating in National Geographic's genographic project and I have become fascinated with the whole idea of genealogy and DNA. In any event here is what I know about my mother. Maria de Jesus Bravo was born in 1906 at a small ranchito named El Zapote, which was located about a mile or so outside the small village of La Ribera, Jalisco. La Rivera Jalisco is immediately adjacent to Yurecuaro, Michoacan and are separated by the Rio Lerma. So while mom
> was born on the Jalisco side of the Rio Lerma, I think she was baptized in the Michoacan side at Yurecuaro. Mother's father was named Ladislao Bravo and her mother was named Maria ( Margarita?) Tinoco. Mom's maternal grandmother was named Estefania Rizo. My mother had 3 sisters whose names were Juana, Carmen and Luisa. She had one brother named Trinidad who married someone also named Trinidad. The families from El Zapote were "concentrated" to La Ribera during the Cristiada and I believe they remained there for most, perhaps all of their lives. My uncle Trinidad was killed during the Cristiada leaving a widow and (I think) one young son. I look forward to receiving your comments/suggestions/etc. I would like to thank Alicia of your group for the sincere encouragement she gave me to write this posting.
> Michael
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
> Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
Mike,
Thanks for your posting, you did pretty good for a novice. Based on the geographical information you provided, I went to www.fallingrain.com/world and found La Rivera on the world map. You too can do it, go to the website, click on Mexico≥find the letter L≥, LA≥, scroll and find La Rivera Jalisco. It will show you the nearest towns and their distance from La Rivera also the nearest airport You will also find that it is now the rainy season. The graph shows the precipitation within the last week. Many thanks to Kitty Cortez who has provided us with this link. Perhaps when you are ready to begin ordering films, knowing this geographical data will be useful in your search.
Welcome Mike, you are now embarked on a fantastic journey that will consume much of your time and thoughts and will be sooo rewarding.
Bienvenido,
Alicia Avelar Olmos de Carrillo
San Jose, Ca
The map you sent is very good and helps me to refine my question in which La
Estancia my grandfather Jose Pedro Rodriguez was born.
There are 4 La Estancias listed in the map. On page 112 of Clotilde
Quiralte's book on Nochistlan she identifies 3 as La Estancia de los
Delgadillos, La Estancia de los Xaureguis, and La Estancia de los Lomelines.
All 3 names appear as common ancestors in my grandfather's tree as they do
in my grandmother's tree.
My grandfather was born on February 17, 1883.
How do I find out in which La Estancia my grandfather was born?
Sincerely,
Charles Clark
From: Charles Clark cclark98@pacbell.net
My grandfather was born on February 17, 1883.
How do I find out in which La Estancia my grandfather was born?
Charles Clark
Charles,
My advice is to find some of your grandfather's siblings if he had any and see what their documents say in terms of place of birth or baptism. Also have you found or searched for their parents. Many times when you put all the documents together as in all the childrens' birth records as well as the marriage records, they lead you to a common place/rancho/estancia for all as most people stayed within the same area or region for several generations.
Hope this helps,
Alicia
I found a document listing the name Rancho Zapote more than 60 times (La Ley Orgánica de división territorial de Michoacán - 20 de julio de 1909,) obviously not all referring to the same ranch, but to different ones with similar names.
I am afraid that name by itself will be of little help, and maybe will even confuse you.
My own grandfather was born in rancho El Zapote de San Ignacio in Yurecuaro.
If you google Rancho El Zapote you will currently find three ranchos with that same name. There is one near La Piedad but with so many in the past, even that one I doubt is my grandfather's.
I am also researching rancho El Zapote. I first thought my ancestors owned it, but there is a list of peones and mediadores which included three of my family surnames, which might be a clue that they simply worked the land, but did not own it.
Google Monografía del Municipio de Yurécuaro Michoacán and look for that list.
If your ancestor is listed there, it might be useful information.
Welcome to NuestrosRanchos Michael,
I was raised in San Diego (Point Loma). We lived there from 1945 to 1962, until my parents moved "up North," to Oakland.
Have you gotten your DNA test results, what's your haplogroup?
Pat Silva Corbera
Mike Bernard Lopez wrote:
Hello list,
I joined this group several weeks back and have enjoyed reading your postings since then. My name is Michael Lopez, I live in San Diego County, I am recently retired and have decided to search for some genealogical history on my parents now that I have the time. My family of origin was "different" than most families in the sense that my parents came to America without any other family and never went back. Hence, I grew up without ever meeting any grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. My children gave me a xmas gift of participating in National Geographic's genographic project and I have become fascinated with the whole idea of genealogy and DNA. In any event here is what I know about my mother. Maria de Jesus Bravo was born in 1906 at a small ranchito named El Zapote, which was located about a mile or so outside the small village of La Ribera, Jalisco. La Rivera Jalisco is immediately adjacent to Yurecuaro, Michoacan and are separated by the Rio Lerma. So while mom
was born on the Jalisco side of the Rio Lerma, I think she was baptized in the Michoacan side at Yurecuaro. Mother's father was named Ladislao Bravo and her mother was named Maria ( Margarita?) Tinoco. Mom's maternal grandmother was named Estefania Rizo. My mother had 3 sisters whose names were Juana, Carmen and Luisa. She had one brother named Trinidad who married someone also named Trinidad. The families from El Zapote were "concentrated" to La Ribera during the Cristiada and I believe they remained there for most, perhaps all of their lives. My uncle Trinidad was killed during the Cristiada leaving a widow and (I think) one young son. I look forward to receiving your comments/suggestions/etc. I would like to thank Alicia of your group for the sincere encouragement she gave me to write this posting.
Michael
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
Hi Pat,
Thanks 4 the welcome note! Yes, I have received the dna results. I have been classified as Haplogroup R1b1c subject to an additional 3 SNP's that they have not obtained as yet (FTDNA). That in itself was most surprizing.
Thanks again,
Michael
Patricia Corbera wrote:
Welcome to NuestrosRanchos Michael,
I was raised in San Diego (Point Loma). We lived there from 1945 to 1962, until my parents moved "up North," to Oakland.
Have you gotten your DNA test results, what's your haplogroup?
Pat Silva Corbera
Mike Bernard Lopez wrote:
Hello list,
I joined this group several weeks back and have enjoyed reading your postings since then. My name is Michael Lopez, I live in San Diego County, I am recently retired and have decided to search for some genealogical history on my parents now that I have the time. My family of origin was "different" than most families in the sense that my parents came to America without any other family and never went back. Hence, I grew up without ever meeting any grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. My children gave me a xmas gift of participating in National Geographic's genographic project and I have become fascinated with the whole idea of genealogy and DNA. In any event here is what I know about my mother. Maria de Jesus Bravo was born in 1906 at a small ranchito named El Zapote, which was located about a mile or so outside the small village of La Ribera, Jalisco. La Rivera Jalisco is immediately adjacent to Yurecuaro, Michoacan and are separated by the Rio Lerma. So while mom
was born on the Jalisco side of the Rio Lerma, I think she was baptized in the Michoacan side at Yurecuaro. Mother's father was named Ladislao Bravo and her mother was named Maria ( Margarita?) Tinoco. Mom's maternal grandmother was named Estefania Rizo. My mother had 3 sisters whose names were Juana, Carmen and Luisa. She had one brother named Trinidad who married someone also named Trinidad. The families from El Zapote were "concentrated" to La Ribera during the Cristiada and I believe they remained there for most, perhaps all of their lives. My uncle Trinidad was killed during the Cristiada leaving a widow and (I think) one young son. I look forward to receiving your comments/suggestions/etc. I would like to thank Alicia of your group for the sincere encouragement she gave me to write this posting.
Michael
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
Hola a todos:
Where could one find those secret baptisms?
En donde se pueden encontrar los bautizos secretos?
Rosie Cordova
Alessandro,
no escrivo el espanol muy bien...pero los bautismos secretos son los ninos que tien padres que no son casados.....
the secret baptisms are those that the parents are not married.....hence the child is a bastard...
Stella
-----Original Message-----
From: viteliky@hotmail.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:43 pm
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
Hola a todos:
En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en el que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama "BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con este tipo de registro "secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a cualquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era secreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño bautizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto que pudieran proporcionarme.
Alessandro
********************************************************************************
Hello everyone:
Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the film he is registered/christened is called "Secret Christenings 1868-1900" at Church records for Zapopan, Jal. Finding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I would like to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can extend or explain me more about this. Why was it secret? What does it contain? Is by ch
ance, the baptized child a son of a violation, incest or something similar? I would appreciate very much any information related.
Sincerely
Alessandro
Esthela:
Thank you for your comment. You know what? About what you say, it is very strange saying the parents were not married because this child I am talking about is the 8th son (and the last-one) for the same parents. No doubt he is their son, I consider after 30 years living together and having 8 sons this couple of parents SHOULD be married. I really think they were married, and I think there must be another cause for this type of registration too.
But anyway, I hope to find out soon, I thank your comment and I take it just like that till new information comes out. This is my very 1st. hint.
LIC. ALESSANDRO VITELA
Ser de Luz!!!
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 22:48:11 -0400
> From: sjlstar@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
>
> Alessandro,
> no escrivo el espanol muy bien...pero los bautismos secretos son los ninos que tien padres que no son casados.....
>
> the secret baptisms are those that the parents are not married.....hence the child is a bastard...
>
> Stella
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: viteliky@hotmail.com
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:43 pm
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
>
>
> Hola a todos:
>
> En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en el que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama "BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con este tipo de registro "secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a cualquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era secreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño bautizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto que pudieran proporcionarme.
>
> Alessandro
>
> ********************************************************************************
>
> Hello everyone:
>
> Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the film he is registered/christened is called "Secret Christenings 1868-1900" at Church records for Zapopan, Jal. Finding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I would like to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can extend or explain me more about this. Why was it secret? What does it contain? Is by ch
> ance, the baptized child a son of a violation, incest or something similar? I would appreciate very much any information related.
>
> Sincerely
>
> Alessandro
Alessandro,
I searched high and low for my grandmothers birth cert. could not find it, then the lady at the LDS center told me to look at the bautismos secretos......the illegite kids.........and yes I found her there.......my gr grandmother and this man had sex without being married....(conceiving my grandmother).....he begged her to marry him but no.........my gr grandmother then married someone else and five years later her first daughter was born, five more children none of them have their birth certs in the bautismos secretos.....this was 1906 when my grandmother was born...so yes it was very embarressing not to be married then
Stella
-----Original Message-----
From: ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:06 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
sthela:
Thank you for your comment. You know what? About what you say, it is very
trange saying the parents were not married because this child I am talking
bout is the 8th son (and the last-one) for the same parents. No doubt he is
heir son, I consider after 30 years living together and having 8 sons this
ouple of parents SHOULD be married. I really think they were married, and I
hink there must be another cause for this type of registration too.
But anyway, I hope to find out soon, I thank your comment and I take it just
ike that till new information comes out. This is my very 1st. hint.
LIC. ALESSANDRO VITELA
Ser de Luz!!!
> To: rese
arch@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 22:48:11 -0400
From: sjlstar@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
Alessandro,
no escrivo el espanol muy bien...pero los bautismos secretos son los ninos que
ien padres que no son casados.....
the secret baptisms are those that the parents are not married.....hence the
hild is a bastard...
Stella
-----Original Message-----
From: viteliky@hotmail.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:43 pm
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
Hola a todos:
En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en el que se encuentra
l registro de su bautizo se llama "BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia
atolica de Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con este tipo de registro "secreto" me
orprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a cualquier persona que sepa sobre este
ema si me puede ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era
ecreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño bautizado producto de
nsesto, violación o algo por el estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al
especto que pudieran proporcionarme.
Alessandro
********************************************************************************
>
Hello everyone:
Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the film he is
egistered/christened is called "Secret Christenings 1868-1900" at Church
ecords for Zapopan, Jal. Finding this type of "secr
et" record shoked me, I
ould like to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can extend or
xplain me more about this. Why was it secret? What does it contain? Is by ch
ance, the baptized child a son of a violation, incest or something similar? I
ould appreciate very much any information related.
Sincerely
Alessandro
Thursday, July 9, 2009
I have seen and used a similar film from the Atotonilco el Alto area. The children listed, or in particular the one that I was researching, had both parents and both sets of grandparents on the Secret Baptismal microfilm. The child's father was married and the father apparently came for the child after his birth. I do not know what happened to the mother. I do have extensive records of her parents, siblings, and ancestors. I have similar records for the father.
The child grew up in the household of his father with half siblings and the father's wife. The half siblings, who all were apparently older, were reportedly very mean to the child. Nothing bad was said about the husband's wife. I did not know the child as he grew up and became a man but I did know his son Lorenzo.
Uncle Lorenzo was ashamed of his father's humble beginnings and did not tell me about his dad until he himself was a very old man. However, others in the family did tell me the family secret and I was able to get at the truth.
The child was also listed in the regular baptismal records with only his mother and maternal grandparents and padrinos.
It is said that about 1/3 of the children born in Mexico did not have legally wed parents. It is not for me/us to judge. I would have liked to have known all the facts about Uncle Lorenzo's father when I first started research in 1978 because it would have made my search a bit easier. However we learn things when we do and that is why we keep digging for the true facts.
Sincerely,
Patricia Burton
San Diego, Ca.
Researching in Ayo el Chico, Atotonilco el Alto, and La Barca, Jalisco
--- On Thu, 7/9/09, viteliky@hotmail.com wrote:
> From: viteliky@hotmail.com
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 7:43 PM
> Hola a todos:
>
> En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en
> el que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama
> "BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de
> Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con este tipo de registro
> "secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a
> cualquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede
> ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era
> secreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño
> bautizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el
> estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto
> que pudieran proporcionarme.
>
> Alessandro
>
> ********************************************************************************
>
> Hello everyone:
>
> Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the
> film he is registered/christened is called "Secret
> Christenings 1868-1900" at Church records for Zapopan, Jal.
> Finding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I would like
> to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can
> extend or explain me more about this. Why was it secret?
> What does it contain? Is by chance, the baptized child a son
> of a violation, incest or something similar? I would
> appreciate very much any information related.
>
> Sincerely
>
> Alessandro
Patricia,
no it is not for us to judge, and it just sickens me to know that from the beginning it was like my grandmother had to be hidden. she also was treated horribly by her mothers husband and their children........in later years when they were adults of coarse they loved her and she forgot it all.......she was very religious....the stuff they did to her....was horrible and always brought up that she was illegit.........they spit in her food, her step dad would walk by while she was eating and pass gas right there next to her...........she was made to do all the work...........sheesh why didnt gr grandmother give her away??? so sad......
Stella
-----Original Message-----
From: patricia burton
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:48 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
hursday, July 9, 2009
I have seen and used a similar film from the Atotonilco el Alto area. The
hildren listed, or in particular the one that I was researching, had both
arents and both sets of grandparents on the Secret Baptismal microfilm. The
hild's father was married and the father apparently came for the child after
is birth. I do not know what happened to the mother. I do have extensive
ecords of her parents, siblings, and ancestors. I have similar records for the
ather.
The child grew up in the household of his father with half siblings and the
ather's wife. The half siblings, who all were apparently older, were
eportedly very m
ean to the child. Nothing bad was said about the husband's
ife. I did not know the child as he grew up and became a man but I did know
is son Lorenzo.
Uncle Lorenzo was ashamed of his father's humble beginnings and did not tell me
bout his dad until he himself was a very old man. However, others in the
amily did tell me the family secret and I was able to get at the truth.
The child was also listed in the regular baptismal records with only his mother
nd maternal grandparents and padrinos.
It is said that about 1/3 of the children born in Mexico did not have legally
ed parents. It is not for me/us to judge. I would have liked to have known
ll the facts about Uncle Lorenzo's father when I first started research in 1978
ecause it would have made my search a bit easier. However we learn things when
e do and that is why we keep digging for the true facts.
Sincerely,
atricia Burton
an Diego, Ca.
esearching in Ayo el Chico, Atotonilco el Alto, and La Barca, Jalisco
--- On Thu, 7/9/09, viteliky@hotmail.com wrote:
> From: viteliky@hotmail.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 7:43 PM
Hola a todos:
En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en
el que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama
"BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de
Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con es
te tipo de registro
"secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a
cualquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede
ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era
secreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño
bautizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el
estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto
que pudieran proporcionarme.
Alessandro
********************************************************************************
Hello everyone:
Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the
film he is registered/christened is called "Secret
Christenings 1868-1900" at Church records for Zapopan, Jal.
Finding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I would like
to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can
extend or explain me more about this. Why was it secret?
What does it contain? Is by chance, the baptized child a son
of a violation, incest or something similar? I would
appreciate very much any information related.
Sincerely
Alessandro
yes both my grandmothers parents were listed on the secret baptism, and so were the grandparents, but the parents were not married.
-----Original Message-----
From: patricia burton
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:48 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
hursday, July 9, 2009
I have seen and used a similar film from the Atotonilco el Alto area. The
hildren listed, or in particular the one that I was researching, had both
arents and both sets of grandparents on the Secret Baptismal microfilm. The
hild's father was married and the father apparently came for the child after
is birth. I do not know what happened to the mother. I do have extensive
ecords of her parents, siblings, and ancestors. I have similar records for the
ather.
The child grew up in the household of his father with half siblings and the
ather's wife. The half siblings, who all were apparently older, were
eportedly very mean to the child. Nothing bad was said about the husband's
ife. I did not know the child as he grew up and became a man but I did know
is son Lorenzo.
Uncle Lorenzo was ashamed of his father's humble beginnings and did not tell me
bout his dad until he himself was a very old man. However, others in the
amily did tell me the family secret and I was able to get at the truth.
The child was also listed in the regular baptismal records with only his mother
nd maternal grandparents
and padrinos.
It is said that about 1/3 of the children born in Mexico did not have legally
ed parents. It is not for me/us to judge. I would have liked to have known
ll the facts about Uncle Lorenzo's father when I first started research in 1978
ecause it would have made my search a bit easier. However we learn things when
e do and that is why we keep digging for the true facts.
Sincerely,
atricia Burton
an Diego, Ca.
esearching in Ayo el Chico, Atotonilco el Alto, and La Barca, Jalisco
--- On Thu, 7/9/09, viteliky@hotmail.com wrote:
> From: viteliky@hotmail.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 7:43 PM
Hola a todos:
En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en
el que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama
"BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de
Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con este tipo de registro
"secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a
cualquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede
ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era
secreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño
bautizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el
estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto
que pudieran proporcionarme.
Alessandro
********************************************************************************
Hello everyone:
R
esearching information about an ancestor, I found that the
film he is registered/christened is called "Secret
Christenings 1868-1900" at Church records for Zapopan, Jal.
Finding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I would like
to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can
extend or explain me more about this. Why was it secret?
What does it contain? Is by chance, the baptized child a son
of a violation, incest or something similar? I would
appreciate very much any information related.
Sincerely
Alessandro
In Jerez they were a little kinder and called it hijos naturales but I found there were many people who were there as umarried but I had a marriage record for them. As someone else said they had many children sometimes and one wonders who decided they belonged in this book. In Jerez the film is 0439889 and covers 1867 to 1875. Unfortunately I did not get to complete it.
Linda in Everett
--- On Thu, 7/9/09, ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO wrote:
From: ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 8:06 PM
Esthela:
Thank you for your comment. You know what? About what you say, it is very strange saying the parents were not married because this child I am talking about is the 8th son (and the last-one) for the same parents. No doubt he is their son, I consider after 30 years living together and having 8 sons this couple of parents SHOULD be married. I really think they were married, and I think there must be another cause for this type of registration too.
But anyway, I hope to find out soon, I thank your comment and I take it just like that till new information comes out. This is my very 1st. hint.
LIC. ALESSANDRO VITELA
Ser de Luz!!!
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 22:48:11 -0400
> From: sjlstar@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
>
> Alessandro,
> no escrivo el espanol muy bien...pero los bautismos secretos son los ninos que tien padres que no son casados.....
>
> the secret baptisms are those that the parents are not married.....hence the child is a bastard...
>
> Stella
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: viteliky@hotmail.com
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:43 pm
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
>
>
> Hola a todos:
>
> En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en el que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama "BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con este tipo de registro "secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a cualquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era secreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño bautizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto que pudieran proporcionarme.
>
> Alessandro
>
> ********************************************************************************
>
> Hello everyone:
>
> Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the film he is registered/christened is called "Secret Christenings 1868-1900" at Church records for Zapopan, Jal. Finding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I would like to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can extend or explain me more about this. Why was it secret? What does it contain? Is by ch
> ance, the baptized child a son of a violation, incest or something similar? I would appreciate very much any information related.
>
> Sincerely
>
> Alessandro
I guess no one should be surprised to what lengths some will go to show their lack of humanity, even within their own families.
I used to think it rare when I heard of one sibling stealing a family inheritance from other brothers and sisters but not anymore. It happened in my fathers family and I heard of an old friend and it happened in his, and then an ex-girlfriend robbed her only brother (only surviving family member) of his share of inheritance. It makes you wonder. Rolando
--- On Thu, 7/9/09, sjlstar@aol.com wrote:
From: sjlstar@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 11:03 PM
Patricia,
no it is not for us to judge, and it just sickens me to know that from the beginning it was like my grandmother had to be hidden. she also was treated horribly by her mothers husband and their children........in later years when they were adults of coarse they loved her and she forgot it all.......she was very religious....the stuff they did to her....was horrible and always brought up that she was illegit.........they spit in her food, her step dad would walk by while she was eating and pass gas right there next to her...........she was made to do all the work...........sheesh why didnt gr grandmother give her away??? so sad......
Stella
-----Original Message-----
From: patricia burton
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:48 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
hursday, July 9, 2009
I have seen and used a similar film from the Atotonilco el Alto area. The
hildren listed, or in particular the one that I was researching, had both
arents and both sets of grandparents on the Secret Baptismal microfilm. The
hild's father was married and the father apparently came for the child after
is birth. I do not know what happened to the mother. I do have extensive
ecords of her parents, siblings, and ancestors. I have similar records for the
ather.
The child grew up in the household of his father with half siblings and the
ather's wife. The half siblings, who all were apparently older, were
eportedly very m
ean to the child. Nothing bad was said about the husband's
ife. I did not know the child as he grew up and became a man but I did know
is son Lorenzo.
Uncle Lorenzo was ashamed of his father's humble beginnings and did not tell me
bout his dad until he himself was a very old man. However, others in the
amily did tell me the family secret and I was able to get at the truth.
The child was also listed in the regular baptismal records with only his mother
nd maternal grandparents and padrinos.
It is said that about 1/3 of the children born in Mexico did not have legally
ed parents. It is not for me/us to judge. I would have liked to have known
ll the facts about Uncle Lorenzo's father when I first started research in 1978
ecause it would have made my search a bit easier. However we learn things when
e do and that is why we keep digging for the true facts.
Sincerely,
atricia Burton
an Diego, Ca.
esearching in Ayo el Chico, Atotonilco el Alto, and La Barca, Jalisco
--- On Thu, 7/9/09, viteliky@hotmail.com wrote:
> From: viteliky@hotmail.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 7:43 PM
Hola a todos:
En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en
el que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama
"BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de
Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con es
te tipo de registro
"secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a
cualquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede
ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era
secreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño
bautizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el
estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto
que pudieran proporcionarme.
Alessandro
********************************************************************************
Hello everyone:
Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the
film he is registered/christened is called "Secret
Christenings 1868-1900" at Church records for Zapopan, Jal.
Finding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I would like
to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can
extend or explain me more about this. Why was it secret?
What does it contain? Is by chance, the baptized child a son
of a violation, incest or something similar? I would
appreciate very much any information related.
Sincerely
Alessandro
Rolando,
are we related??..............lol
My gr gr grandmother/father left my grandmother an inheritance.......and yes those half siblings stole it! they and their parents were left nothing for the way they treated my grandmother. My grandmothers mother somehow did some kind of shannanigans and took it from my grandmother and gave it to her other kids, cause it wasn't fair that their grandparents left them nothing......if you knew my granmother you would of loved her, everyone did....no bitterness for the way her life turned out.
Stella
we dig all this stuff up huh?
-----Original Message-----
From: Rolando Romo
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:05 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
I guess no one should be surprised to what lengths some will go to show their
ack of humanity, even within their own families.
used to think it rare when I heard of one sibling stealing a family
nheritance from other brothers and sisters but not anymore. It happened in my
athers family and I heard of an old friend and it happened in his, and then an
x-girlfriend robbed her only brother (only surviving family member) of his
hare of inheritance. It makes you wonder. Rolando
--- On Thu, 7/9/09, sjlstar@aol.com wrote:
rom: sjlstar@aol.com
ubject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
o: research@nuestrosranchos.org
ate: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 11:03 PM
atricia,
o it is not for us to judge, and it just
sickens me to know that from the
eginning it was like my grandmother had to be hidden. she also was treated
orribly by her mothers husband and their children........in later years when
hey were adults of coarse they loved her and she forgot it all.......she was
ery religious....the stuff they did to her....was horrible and always brought
p that she was illegit.........they spit in her food, her step dad would walk
y while she was eating and pass gas right there next to her...........she was
ade to do all the work...........sheesh why didnt gr grandmother give her
way??? so sad......
tella
----Original Message-----
rom: patricia burton
o: research@nuestrosranchos.org
ent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:48 pm
ubject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
ursday, July 9, 2009
have seen and used a similar film from the Atotonilco el Alto area. The
ildren listed, or in particular the one that I was researching, had both
rents and both sets of grandparents on the Secret Baptismal microfilm. The
ild's father was married and the father apparently came for the child after
s birth. I do not know what happened to the mother. I do have extensive
cords of her parents, siblings, and ancestors. I have similar records for the
ther.
he child grew up in the household of his father with half siblings and the
ther's wife. The half siblings, who all were apparently older, were
portedly very m
an to the child. Nothing bad was said about
the husband's
fe. I did not know the child as he grew up and became a man but I did know
s son Lorenzo.
ncle Lorenzo was ashamed of his father's humble beginnings and did not tell me
out his dad until he himself was a very old man. However, others in the
mily did tell me the family secret and I was able to get at the truth.
he child was also listed in the regular baptismal records with only his mother
d maternal grandparents and padrinos.
t is said that about 1/3 of the children born in Mexico did not have legally
d parents. It is not for me/us to judge. I would have liked to have known
l the facts about Uncle Lorenzo's father when I first started research in 1978
cause it would have made my search a bit easier. However we learn things when
do and that is why we keep digging for the true facts.
incerely,
tricia Burton
n Diego, Ca.
searching in Ayo el Chico, Atotonilco el Alto, and La Barca, Jalisco
-- On Thu, 7/9/09, viteliky@hotmail.com wrote:
From: viteliky@hotmail.com
ubject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
o: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
ate: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 7:43 PM
ola a todos:
En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en
l que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama
BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de
apopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con es
e tipo de registro
secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle20a
ualquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede
mpliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era
ecreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño
autizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el
stilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto
ue pudieran proporcionarme.
Alessandro
********************************************************************************
Hello everyone:
Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the
ilm he is registered/christened is called "Secret
hristenings 1868-1900" at Church records for Zapopan, Jal.
inding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I would like
o ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can
xtend or explain me more about this. Why was it secret?
hat does it contain? Is by chance, the baptized child a son
f a violation, incest or something similar? I would
ppreciate very much any information related.
Sincerely
Alessandro
Yes you don't have to dig too deep or too far to find this kind of thing. It is one of those major sins - greed.
My father was falsely accused of hoarding his father's inheritance for himself and a sister convinced the majority of her siblings to support her and she convinced my grandmother, on her deathbed, to make her the executor of my grandmother's will. Needless to say, that the sister not only took everything for herself and didn't even share with her siblings that had supported her but she refused to make repairs on properties and pay taxes. She lost it all and none of the other brothers and sisters ever saw a dime. My father had been giving them all a small share of the benefits and putting most of the money back to repairs and taxes. Their greed didn't pay off in the long run. The fact is that Dad didn't care so much about the money but how his siblings, with a few exceptions, turned on him. It has hurt him deeply. All of his brothers and sisters are gone now, except for one - guess which one? She cries whenever she sees my Dad - I guess there is some
guilt there, good!
I suspect that many families have come apart due to such conflicts. It will be interesting to see what happens to the family of Michael Jackson.
--- On Fri, 7/10/09, sjlstar@aol.com wrote:
From: sjlstar@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Friday, July 10, 2009, 4:10 PM
Rolando,
are we related??..............lol
My gr gr grandmother/father left my grandmother an inheritance.......and yes those half siblings stole it! they and their parents were left nothing for the way they treated my grandmother. My grandmothers mother somehow did some kind of shannanigans and took it from my grandmother and gave it to her other kids, cause it wasn't fair that their grandparents left them nothing......if you knew my granmother you would of loved her, everyone did....no bitterness for the way her life turned out.
Stella
we dig all this stuff up huh?
-----Original Message-----
From: Rolando Romo
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:05 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
I guess no one should be surprised to what lengths some will go to show their
ack of humanity, even within their own families.
used to think it rare when I heard of one sibling stealing a family
nheritance from other brothers and sisters but not anymore. It happened in my
athers family and I heard of an old friend and it happened in his, and then an
x-girlfriend robbed her only brother (only surviving family member) of his
hare of inheritance. It makes you wonder. Rolando
--- On Thu, 7/9/09, sjlstar@aol.com wrote:
rom: sjlstar@aol.com
ubject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
o: research@nuestrosranchos.org
ate: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 11:03 PM
atricia,
o it is not for us to judge, and it just
sickens me to know that from the
eginning it was like my grandmother had to be hidden. she also was treated
orribly by her mothers husband and their children........in later years when
hey were adults of coarse they loved her and she forgot it all.......she was
ery religious....the stuff they did to her....was horrible and always brought
p that she was illegit.........they spit in her food, her step dad would walk
y while she was eating and pass gas right there next to her...........she was
ade to do all the work...........sheesh why didnt gr grandmother give her
way??? so sad......
tella
----Original Message-----
rom: patricia burton
o: research@nuestrosranchos.org
ent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:48 pm
ubject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
ursday, July 9, 2009
have seen and used a similar film from the Atotonilco el Alto area. The
ildren listed, or in particular the one that I was researching, had both
rents and both sets of grandparents on the Secret Baptismal microfilm. The
ild's father was married and the father apparently came for the child after
s birth. I do not know what happened to the mother. I do have extensive
cords of her parents, siblings, and ancestors. I have similar records for the
ther.
he child grew up in the household of his father with half siblings and the
ther's wife. The half siblings, who all were apparently older, were
portedly very m
an to the child. Nothing bad was said about
the husband's
fe. I did not know the child as he grew up and became a man but I did know
s son Lorenzo.
ncle Lorenzo was ashamed of his father's humble beginnings and did not tell me
out his dad until he himself was a very old man. However, others in the
mily did tell me the family secret and I was able to get at the truth.
he child was also listed in the regular baptismal records with only his mother
d maternal grandparents and padrinos.
t is said that about 1/3 of the children born in Mexico did not have legally
d parents. It is not for me/us to judge. I would have liked to have known
l the facts about Uncle Lorenzo's father when I first started research in 1978
cause it would have made my search a bit easier. However we learn things when
do and that is why we keep digging for the true facts.
incerely,
tricia Burton
n Diego, Ca.
searching in Ayo el Chico, Atotonilco el Alto, and La Barca, Jalisco
-- On Thu, 7/9/09, viteliky@hotmail.com wrote:
From: viteliky@hotmail.com
ubject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
o: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
ate: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 7:43 PM
ola a todos:
En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en
l que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama
BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de
apopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con es
e tipo de registro
secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle20a
ualquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede
mpliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era
ecreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño
autizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el
stilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto
ue pudieran proporcionarme.
Alessandro
********************************************************************************
Hello everyone:
Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the
ilm he is registered/christened is called "Secret
hristenings 1868-1900" at Church records for Zapopan, Jal.
inding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I would like
o ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can
xtend or explain me more about this. Why was it secret?
hat does it contain? Is by chance, the baptized child a son
f a violation, incest or something similar? I would
ppreciate very much any information related.
Sincerely
Alessandro
I suspect that many families have come apart due to such conflicts. It will be
nteresting to see what happens to the family of Michael Jackson.
Soooo true.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rolando Romo
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:22 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
Yes you don't have to dig too deep or too far to find this kind of thing. It is
ne of those major sins - greed.
y father was falsely accused of hoarding his father's inheritance for himself
nd a sister convinced the majority of her siblings to support her and she
onvinced my grandmother, on her deathbed, to make her the executor of my
randmother's will. Needless to say, that the sister not only took everything
or herself and didn't even share with her siblings that had supported her but
he refused to make repairs on properties and pay taxes. She lost it all and
one of the other brothers and sisters ever saw a dime. My father had been
iving them all a small share of the benefits and putting most of the money back
o repairs and taxes. Their greed didn't pay off in the long run. The fact is
hat Dad didn't care so much about the money but how his siblings, with a few
xceptions, turned on him. It has hurt him deeply. All of his brothers and
isters are gone now, except for one - guess which one? She cries whenever she
ees my Dad - I guess there is some
guilt there, good!
I suspect that ma
ny families have come apart due to such conflicts. It will be
nteresting to see what happens to the family of Michael Jackson.
--- On Fri, 7/10/09, sjlstar@aol.com wrote:
rom: sjlstar@aol.com
ubject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
o: research@nuestrosranchos.org
ate: Friday, July 10, 2009, 4:10 PM
olando,
re we related??..............lol
y gr gr grandmother/father left my grandmother an inheritance.......and yes
hose half siblings stole it! they and their parents were left nothing for the
ay they treated my grandmother. My grandmothers mother somehow did some kind
f shannanigans and took it from my grandmother and gave it to her other kids,
ause it wasn't fair that their grandparents left them nothing......if you knew
y granmother you would of loved her, everyone did....no bitterness for the way
er life turned out.
tella
e dig all this stuff up huh?
----Original Message-----
rom: Rolando Romo
o: research@nuestrosranchos.org
ent: Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:05 pm
ubject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
I guess no one should be surprised to what lengths some will go to show their
ck of humanity, even within their own families.
used to think it rare when I heard of one sibling stealing a family
heritance from other brothers and sisters but not anymore. It happened in my
thers family and I heard of an old friend and it happened in his, and then an
-girlfriend robbed her only brother (only surviving family member
) of his
are of inheritance. It makes you wonder. Rolando
-- On Thu, 7/9/09, sjlstar@aol.com wrote:
rom: sjlstar@aol.com
bject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
: research@nuestrosranchos.org
te: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 11:03 PM
atricia,
it is not for us to judge, and it just
ickens me to know that from the
ginning it was like my grandmother had to be hidden. she also was treated
rribly by her mothers husband and their children........in later years when
ey were adults of coarse they loved her and she forgot it all.......she was
ry religious....the stuff they did to her....was horrible and always brought
that she was illegit.........they spit in her food, her step dad would walk
while she was eating and pass gas right there next to her...........she was
de to do all the work...........sheesh why didnt gr grandmother give her
ay??? so sad......
ella
----Original Message-----
om: patricia burton
: research@nuestrosranchos.org
nt: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:48 pm
bject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
rsday, July 9, 2009
ave seen and used a similar film from the Atotonilco el Alto area. The
ldren listed, or in particular the one that I was researching, had both
ents and both sets of grandparents on the Secret Baptismal microfilm. The
ld's father was married and the father apparently came for the child after
birth. I do not know what happened to the mother. I do have extensive
ords of her
parents, siblings, and ancestors. I have similar records for the
her.
e child grew up in the household of his father with half siblings and the
her's wife. The half siblings, who all were apparently older, were
ortedly very m
n to the child. Nothing bad was said about
he husband's
e. I did not know the child as he grew up and became a man but I did know
son Lorenzo.
cle Lorenzo was ashamed of his father's humble beginnings and did not tell me
ut his dad until he himself was a very old man. However, others in the
ily did tell me the family secret and I was able to get at the truth.
e child was also listed in the regular baptismal records with only his mother
maternal grandparents and padrinos.
is said that about 1/3 of the children born in Mexico did not have legally
parents. It is not for me/us to judge. I would have liked to have known
the facts about Uncle Lorenzo's father when I first started research in 1978
ause it would have made my search a bit easier. However we learn things when
o and that is why we keep digging for the true facts.
ncerely,
ricia Burton
Diego, Ca.
earching in Ayo el Chico, Atotonilco el Alto, and La Barca, Jalisco
- On Thu, 7/9/09, viteliky@hotmail.com wrote:
rom: viteliky@hotmail.com
bject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
te: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 7:43 PM
la a todos:
n busqueda20de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en
que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama
AUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de
popan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con es
tipo de registro
ecreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle20a
alquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede
pliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era
creto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño
utizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el
tilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto
e pudieran proporcionarme.
lessandro
*******************************************************************************
ello everyone:
esearching information about an ancestor, I found that the
lm he is registered/christened is called "Secret
ristenings 1868-1900" at Church records for Zapopan, Jal.
nding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I would like
ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can
tend or explain me more about this. Why was it secret?
at does it contain? Is by chance, the baptized child a son
a violation, incest or something similar? I would
preciate very much any information related.
incerely
lessandro
My husband's great grandmother said when she was young the priests would record baptisms in the book of "hijos naturales" if the father was not present for the baptism. Even if the priest knew the parents were married. She said the priests would not take anyone's word, but the father's that the child was legitimate.
> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 08:51:06 -0700
> From: longsjourney@yahoo.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
>
> In Jerez they were a little kinder and called it hijos naturales but I found there were many people who were there as umarried but I had a marriage record for them. As someone else said they had many children sometimes and one wonders who decided they belonged in this book. In Jerez the film is 0439889 and covers 1867 to 1875. Unfortunately I did not get to complete it.
>
> Linda in Everett
>
> --- On Thu, 7/9/09, ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO wrote:
>
>
> From: ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 8:06 PM
>
>
>
> Esthela:
>
>
>
> Thank you for your comment. You know what? About what you say, it is very strange saying the parents were not married because this child I am talking about is the 8th son (and the last-one) for the same parents. No doubt he is their son, I consider after 30 years living together and having 8 sons this couple of parents SHOULD be married. I really think they were married, and I think there must be another cause for this type of registration too.
>
>
>
> But anyway, I hope to find out soon, I thank your comment and I take it just like that till new information comes out. This is my very 1st. hint.
>
>
>
>
> LIC. ALESSANDRO VITELA
>
> Ser de Luz!!!
>
>
>
>
> > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 22:48:11 -0400
> > From: sjlstar@aol.com
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
> >
> > Alessandro,
> > no escrivo el espanol muy bien...pero los bautismos secretos son los ninos que tien padres que no son casados.....
> >
> > the secret baptisms are those that the parents are not married.....hence the child is a bastard...
> >
> > Stella
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: viteliky@hotmail.com
> > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:43 pm
> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
> >
> >
> > Hola a todos:
> >
> > En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en el que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama "BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con este tipo de registro "secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a cualquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era secreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño bautizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto que pudieran proporcionarme.
> >
> > Alessandro
> >
> > ********************************************************************************
> >
> > Hello everyone:
> >
> > Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the film he is registered/christened is called "Secret Christenings 1868-1900" at Church records for Zapopan, Jal. Finding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I would like to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can extend or explain me more about this. Why was it secret? What does it contain? Is by ch
> > ance, the baptized child a son of a violation, incest or something similar? I would appreciate very much any information related.
> >
> > Sincerely
> >
> > Alessandro
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Y tú, ¿ya actualizaste tu Perfil?
> http://www.actualizatuperfil.com.mx/
books are not secrets that are not classified as natural children, as in
tepetongo zacatecas Baptisms 1843-1860,1862-1919 of natural children - FHL
INTL Film [1158157]
no son libros secretos sin que estan catalogados como hijos naturales , como
en tepetongo zacatecas Bautismos de hijos naturales 1843-1860,1862-1919 -
FHL INTL Film [ 1158157 ]
2009/7/16 Lona Rivera
>
> My husband's great grandmother said when she was young the priests would
> record baptisms in the book of "hijos naturales" if the father was not
> present for the baptism. Even if the priest knew the parents were married.
> She said the priests would not take anyone's word, but the father's that the
> child was legitimate.
>
> > Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 08:51:06 -0700
> > From: longsjourney@yahoo.com
> > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
> >
> > In Jerez they were a little kinder and called it hijos naturales but I
> found there were many people who were there as umarried but I had a marriage
> record for them. As someone else said they had many children sometimes and
> one wonders who decided they belonged in this book. In Jerez the film is
> 0439889 and covers 1867 to 1875. Unfortunately I did not get to complete
> it.
> >
> > Linda in Everett
> >
> > --- On Thu, 7/9/09, ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
> > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 8:06 PM
> >
> >
> >
> > Esthela:
> >
> >
> >
> > Thank you for your comment. You know what? About what you say, it is very
> strange saying the parents were not married because this child I am talking
> about is the 8th son (and the last-one) for the same parents. No doubt he is
> their son, I consider after 30 years living together and having 8 sons this
> couple of parents SHOULD be married. I really think they were married, and
> I think there must be another cause for this type of registration too.
> >
> >
> >
> > But anyway, I hope to find out soon, I thank your comment and I take it
> just like that till new information comes out. This is my very 1st. hint.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > LIC. ALESSANDRO VITELA
> >
> > Ser de Luz!!!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > > Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 22:48:11 -0400
> > > From: sjlstar@aol.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
> > >
> > > Alessandro,
> > > no escrivo el espanol muy bien...pero los bautismos secretos son los
> ninos que tien padres que no son casados.....
> > >
> > > the secret baptisms are those that the parents are not
> married.....hence the child is a bastard...
> > >
> > > Stella
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: viteliky@hotmail.com
> > > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > > Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:43 pm
> > > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
> > >
> > >
> > > Hola a todos:
> > >
> > > En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en el que se
> encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama "BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900"
> de la Iglesia catolica de Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con este tipo de
> registro "secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a cualquier
> persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede ampliar o ilustrar con
> informacion al respecto. Porque era secreto? Que es lo que puede contener?
> Es acaso el niño bautizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el
> estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto que pudieran
> proporcionarme.
> > >
> > > Alessandro
> > >
> > >
> ********************************************************************************
> > >
> > > Hello everyone:
> > >
> > > Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the film he is
> registered/christened is called "Secret Christenings 1868-1900" at Church
> records for Zapopan, Jal. Finding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I
> would like to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can extend
> or explain me more about this. Why was it secret? What does it contain? Is
> by ch
> > > ance, the baptized child a son of a violation, incest or something
> similar? I would appreciate very much any information related.
> > >
> > > Sincerely
> > >
> > > Alessandro
> > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> > >
> > > To post, send email to:
> > > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> > >
> > > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> > >
> > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> > >
> > > To post, send email to:
> > > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> > >
> > > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Y tú, ¿ya actualizaste tu Perfil?
> > http://www.actualizatuperfil.com.mx/
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync.
> http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009
Thank you Esthela, I get the point. It is just it sounded strange to me.
LIC. ALESSANDRO VITELA
Ser de Luz!!!
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 23:29:44 -0400
> From: sjlstar@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
>
> Alessandro,
> I searched high and low for my grandmothers birth cert. could not find it, then the lady at the LDS center told me to look at the bautismos secretos......the illegite kids.........and yes I found her there.......my gr grandmother and this man had sex without being married....(conceiving my grandmother).....he begged her to marry him but no.........my gr grandmother then married someone else and five years later her first daughter was born, five more children none of them have their birth certs in the bautismos secretos.....this was 1906 when my grandmother was born...so yes it was very embarressing not to be married then
> Stella
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:06 pm
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
>
>
>
>
> sthela:
>
> Thank you for your comment. You know what? About what you say, it is very
> trange saying the parents were not married because this child I am talking
> bout is the 8th son (and the last-one) for the same parents. No doubt he is
> heir son, I consider after 30 years living together and having 8 sons this
> ouple of parents SHOULD be married. I really think they were married, and I
> hink there must be another cause for this type of registration too.
>
> But anyway, I hope to find out soon, I thank your comment and I take it just
> ike that till new information comes out. This is my very 1st. hint.
>
>
> LIC. ALESSANDRO VITELA
> Ser de Luz!!!
>
>
> > To: rese
> arch@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 22:48:11 -0400
> From: sjlstar@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
>
> Alessandro,
> no escrivo el espanol muy bien...pero los bautismos secretos son los ninos que
> ien padres que no son casados.....
>
> the secret baptisms are those that the parents are not married.....hence the
> hild is a bastard...
>
> Stella
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: viteliky@hotmail.com
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:43 pm
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
>
>
> Hola a todos:
>
> En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en el que se encuentra
> l registro de su bautizo se llama "BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia
> atolica de Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con este tipo de registro "secreto" me
> orprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a cualquier persona que sepa sobre este
> ema si me puede ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era
> ecreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño bautizado producto de
> nsesto, violación o algo por el estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al
> especto que pudieran proporcionarme.
>
> Alessandro
>
> ********************************************************************************
> >
> Hello everyone:
>
> Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the film he is
> egistered/christened is called "Secret Christenings 1868-1900" at Church
> ecords for Zapopan, Jal. Finding this type of "secr
> et" record shoked me, I
> ould like to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can extend or
> xplain me more about this. Why was it secret? What does it contain? Is by ch
> ance, the baptized child a son of a violation, incest or something similar? I
> ould appreciate very much any information related.
>
> Sincerely
>
> Alessandro
Oh my gosh yes Alessandro its very strange!!!
How do you think I felt when this lady told me to look in the Bautismos SECRETOS........what the heck was this? secretos??? secrets???? what??? then I find my grandmother.....and why she is there and I tell my mother and she tells me...dont tell your grandmother!!!!......(about the baptism) My mother really hates that that I do this geneology.....doesn't like me finding out the family secrets.......lol.......later my gr grandmother married her first cousin and had these horrible siblings that made life very difficult for my grandmother.
Stella
-----Original Message-----
From: ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
hank you Esthela, I get the point. It is just it sounded strange to me.
IC. ALESSANDRO VITELA
Ser de Luz!!!
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 23:29:44 -0400
From: sjlstar@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
Alessandro,
I searched high and low for my grandmothers birth cert. could not find it,
hen the lady at the LDS center told me to look at the bautismos
ecretos......the illegite kids.........and yes I found her there.......my gr
randmother and this man had sex without being married....(conceiving my
randmother).....he begged her to marry him but no.........my gr grandmother
hen married someone else and five years later her first daughter was born, five
ore ch
ildren none of them have their birth certs in the bautismos
ecretos.....this was 1906 when my grandmother was born...so yes it was very
mbarressing not to be married then
Stella
-----Original Message-----
From: ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:06 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
sthela:
Thank you for your comment. You know what? About what you say, it is very
trange saying the parents were not married because this child I am talking
bout is the 8th son (and the last-one) for the same parents. No doubt he is
heir son, I consider after 30 years living together and having 8 sons this
ouple of parents SHOULD be married. I really think they were married, and I
hink there must be another cause for this type of registration too.
But anyway, I hope to find out soon, I thank your comment and I take it just
ike that till new information comes out. This is my very 1st. hint.
LIC. ALESSANDRO VITELA
Ser de Luz!!!
> To: rese
arch@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 22:48:11 -0400
From: sjlstar@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
Alessandro,
no escrivo el espanol muy bien...pero los bautismos secretos son los ninos que
> ien padres que no son casados.....
the secret baptisms are those that the parents are not married.....hence the
hild is a bastard...
Stella0D
-----Original Message-----
From: viteliky@hotmail.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:43 pm
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
Hola a todos:
En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en el que se encuentra
> l registro de su bautizo se llama "BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia
> atolica de Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con este tipo de registro "secreto"
e
orprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a cualquier persona que sepa sobre este
> ema si me puede ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era
ecreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño bautizado producto de
nsesto, violación o algo por el estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al
especto que pudieran proporcionarme.
Alessandro
********************************************************************************
> >
Hello everyone:
Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the film he is
egistered/christened is called "Secret Christenings 1868-1900" at Church
ecords for Zapopan, Jal. Finding this type of "secr
et" record shoked me, I
ould like to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can extend or
xplain me more about this. Why was it secret? What does it contain? Is by ch
ance, the baptized child a son of a violation, incest or something similar? I
ould appreciate very much any information related.
Sincerely
Alessa
ndro
I don't know about secret baptisms in the 1800's. However, during the Mexican Revolution in the early 1900's many Catholic Church officials had to go underground and were often killed or imprisoned for performing religious rites.
I had an aunt that was born in Mexico during the time of the revolution and my grandfather took her to a priest during the night and had her secretly baptized in order not to get both the priest and my grandfather in trouble with the revolutionaries. Yes, my grandfather and grandmother were legally married in Monterrey and my grandmother stayed at home that night in order to take care of my uncle who was a toddler at that time. My grandparents eventually moved to Texas to escape the violence of the revolution. With the exception of one cousin (that now lives in Monterrey) our entire family of descendants from my grandparents still live in the USA.
I don't know about secret baptisms in the 1800's. However, during the Mexican Revolution in the early 1900's many Catholic Church officials had to go underground and were often killed or imprisoned for performing religious rites.
I had an aunt that was born in Mexico during the time of the revolution and my grandfather took her to a priest during the night and had her secretly baptized in order not to get both the priest and my grandfather in trouble with the revolutionaries. Yes, my grandfather and grandmother were legally married in Monterrey and my grandmother stayed at home that night in order to take care of my uncle who was a toddler at that time. My grandparents eventually moved to Texas to escape the violence of the revolution. With the exception of one cousin (that now lives in Monterrey) our entire family of descendants from my grandparents still live in the USA.
Hello,
Welcome!
I have Pinos ancestry, too. I have Cruz, de Avila, de la Trinidad, Lopez, Padilla, Barcenas, and Nieto as some of my last names.
Juan de Malaber