Dr.mt

Information on Diego Villalpando y Gertrudis Rodriguez

Published by robros12 –
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Hello Everyone!

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Roberto

I did some research on the descendants of Tomas de Villalpando a few years ago, and posted the results in the members’ files area of NR. Go there, click on my name, and you can download the report. The research was not exhaustive, but may be of help.

George Fulton

Comentario

Hi Roberto,
This couple is my 5x great grandparents, by way of Jesus's brother Ygnacio.
If you're on 23andme or ancestry, let me know.

David

Alonso de Llerena Agúndez

Published by Salvador94 –
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Hola compañeros:

Después de mucho tiempo de ausentarme de este grupo estoy de regreso, al menos durante las vacaciones y quiero desearles a todos un muy feliz verano.

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Monte de los Velascos, Nochistlán, Velasco, Zevallos de la Barrera

Published by Carlos_Salgado –
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Hi, I'm looking for information on a place (a rancho?) called Monte de los Velascos in the late 1700's Jurisdicción of Nochistlán.

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Published by R.A.Ricci (no verificado) – Mar, 2017-03-21 19:23 | Enlace permanente

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Dear Carlos,

These records may help you in your research:

The padrinos of this first baptism may provide clues as to Maria Micaela's ancestry

Name Ma. Calistra De Jesus Barrera Velasco
Gender Female
Christening Date 23 Sep 1820
Christening Place TONILA,JALISCO,MEXICO
Father's Name Manl. Barrera
Mother's Name Ma. Micaela Velasco
Citing this Record
"México bautismos, 1560-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JMCT-FR4 : 2 January 2015), Ma. Micaela Velasco in entry for Ma. Calistra De Jesus Barrera Velasco, 23 Sep 1820; citing TONILA,JALISCO,MEXICO, reference ;

FHL microfilm 694,724.IMAGE 167 out of 680; Right page, Bottom half.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939L-73TQ-R?mode=g&i=166&wc=3JF…

Name Jose Mateo Ceballos
Event Type Baptism
Event Date 25 Sep 1858
Event Place Santiago Apóstol, Pihuamo, Jalisco, Mexico
Gender Male
Birthplace Santa Cruz
Father's Name Salvador Ceballos
Mother's Name Eulogia Berdusco
Paternal Grandfather's Name Manuel Ceballos
Paternal Grandmother's Name Miquela Velasco
Maternal Grandfather's Name Dionisio Berdusco
Maternal Grandmother's Name Eduvigis Cuebas
Citing this Record
México, Jalisco, registros parroquiales, 1590-1979, database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QK72-G6QT : 16 February 2017), Miquela Velasco in entry for Jose Mateo Ceballos, 25 Sep 1858; citing Baptism, Santiago Apóstol, Pihuamo, Jalisco, Mexico, parroquias Católicas Jalisco (Catholic Church parishes, Jalisco); FHL microfilm 655,538

Name Jose Leonides Seballos
Event Type Baptism
Event Date 09 Aug 1856
Event Place Santiago Apóstol, Pihuamo, Jalisco, Mexico
Gender Male
Birthplace Santa Cruz
Father's Name Salvador Seballos
Mother's Name Eulogia Verdusco
Paternal Grandfather's Name Manuel Seballos
Paternal Grandmother's Name Micaela Velasco
Maternal Grandfather's Name Dionicio Verdusco
Maternal Grandmother's Name Edubige Cuevaz
Citing this Record
México, Jalisco, registros parroquiales, 1590-1979, database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QK72-GJN1 : 16 February 2017), Micaela Velasco in entry for Jose Leonides Seballos, 09 Aug 1856; citing Baptism, Santiago Apóstol, Pihuamo, Jalisco, Mexico, parroquias Católicas Jalisco (Catholic Church parishes, Jalisco); FHL microfilm 655,538.

Rick A. Ricci

Don Diego Rangel Peguero en Guanajuato

Published by Marcelina Macias –
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Hola a todos:

Como muchos de ustedes también desciendo de Don Diego Rangel Peguero, aunque he visto varios temas de discusión se refieren a la descendencia que dejó en Aguascalientes.

Cobian de Busto, Munoz de Aceves, Chavez Campoverde, Sotomayor, Lopez de Lara etc.

Published by ibarra55 –
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Alguien tiene información sobre las siguientes familias, la mayoría de Leon, San Francisco del Rincón, o Celaya en Guanajuato, pero con descendientes en la región de San Diego de Alejandría, Ayo el Ch

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Comentario

Does anyone have more information on the following families, who lived mostly around Leon, San Francisco del Rincón, or Celaya Guanajuato, butwho also had descendants living in San Diego de Alejandría, Ayo el Chico, and Arandas? The following list is only those from whom I am a direct descendant, since many of these families with the possible exception of the Cobian de Busto, often had many children. I would be grateful for any information since it has been somewhat difficult to research these families because many of the records from San Francisco del Rincón have not been indexed by FamilySearch.

Cobian de Busto
The furthest ancestors I have been able to identify is Antonio Cobian de Busto Who married Isabel de Tapia In Mexico City on 17 Mar 1717
( https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939Z-5N9H-K4?i=698&wc=3P62-… ). Their marriage was also recorded in 1733 in Celaya, where they were vecinos, mentioning that their marriage had occured earlier in Mexico City. Neither record lists their parents. They had at least two sons:

Antonio Maria Salvador, baptized in Celaya in 1725 with Dn Agustin Sandoval and Dna Manuela Estrada as godparents ( https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9G66-GX3?i=584&wc=3V4C… ). Antonio was teniente de cura of San Francisco del Rincon around the middle of the 18th century.

Francisco Xavier Cleto Marcelino, baptized in Celaya in 1727 with Dn Manuel de la Riba as godfather ( https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GG66-PZ1?i=605&wc=3V4C… ). His marriage record states that he came to San Francisco del Rincón in 1756, probably with his brother Antonio. In 1757 he married Maria Eusevia de los Dolores Chavez-Campoverde y Sanchez Sotomayor, the daughter of Miguel de Chavez Campoverde and Alexandra Isabel Sanchez de Soto, (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GG55-9MWC?i=74&wc=3VHJ…). He died betwesn 1777 and 1782 in San Francisco del Rincon. They are the ancestors of the Cobian families of San Francisco del Rincon, and I descend from his son:

Juan de Dios, Who married Maria Josefa Munoz de Aceves y Sanchez, the daughter of Juan Estevan Munoz de Aceves and Maria Antonia de la Encarnacion Sanchez. They are my 7th great-grandparents through their daughter Maria Rafaela Cobian (b. 13 Aug 1791) who married Pedro Villalobos Lopez (son of Jose Anastacio Villalobos and Tomasa Rosalia Lopez) who lived in the jurisdictions of San Diego de Alejandria, Arandas, and San Miguel el Alto. If anyone has any information about Jose Anastacio Villalobos and Tomas Rosalia Lopez I would also greatly appreciate it, since they are another brick wall.

Munoz de Aceves
I don't know the exact realtionship (or if there is one) between these Munoz de Aceves and those of los Altos descended from Carlos Munoz de Aceves. Maria Josefa Munoz's father, Juan Estevan Munoz de Aceves was the son of Jose Jacinto Munoz de Aceves and Maria Manuela Lopez de Lara y Zermeno de Laris (the daughter of Andres Lopez de Lara y Busto and Maria Vasquez de Zermeño y Laris). Jacinto was the son of another Jacinto Munoz de Aceves (II) and his wife Isabel de Soto y Torres de Hinojosa. I have not yet confirmed but believe that Jacinto (II), like the other contemporary Munoz de Aceves living in SF del Rincón was the son of another Jacinto Munoz de Aceves (I) and his wife Catalina Martin de Acevedo, originally from Celaya, Gto.

There are also some scattered references in Mariano González Leal's Retoños to members of this family in the chapters on Aceves and López de Lara, among others.

Chavez Campoverde
The parents of Maria Eusevia Chavez, the wife of Franciso Xavier Cobian, were Miguel de Chavez Campoverde (III) and Alexandra Isabel Sanchez de Sotomayor (daughter of Juan Manuel Sanchez and Jacinta de Soto y Hinojosa). Miguel (III) was the son of another Miguel de Chavez Campoverde (II) and his wife Juana Lopez de Lara y de la Rua (the daughter of Juan Lopez de Lara y Padilla-Davila and Petronila Moreno de la Rua, the daughter of Juan Moreno de la Rua, alferez mayor of Leon, and Maria de Busto y Puelles. Maria was the daughter of Pedro de Busto y Diez de Noriega, likewise an alferez of Leon, and Ana de Puelles y Linan de Villavicencio). Miguel (II) was the son of another Miguel de Chavez Campoverde (I) and of Juana Sanchez Gomez, residents of Leon, Gto. I have not yet been able to connect Miguel concreteley to the progenitors of the Chavez Campoverde identified by Mariano Gonzalez Leal as Andres Fernandez de Campoverde, alcalde ordinario, procurador, and escribano in Leon, Gto. and his wife Ana de Chavez y Acosta (the illegitimate daughter of Rodrigo de Acosta). Rodrigo de Chavez Campoverde, cura of Marfil was also a member of this family.

Sotomayor
Isabel de Soto y Torres de Hinojosa and Jacinta de Soto y Hinojosa were the daughters of Andres de Soto(mayor) y Castrejon (the possible namesake of La Cañada de los Soto) originally from Patzcuaro, Michoacan and Sebastiana Ruiz de Aldana y Hinojosa de Torres (daughter of Tomas Ruiz de Aldana and Isabel de Torres Hinojosa Baron), who was originally from Leon. Some baptismal records in San Francisco del Rincon in which Andres and his wife were godparents and which list the parent's names of the godparents have Andres as the son of Martin de Sotomayor y Rodriguez (son of Martin Rodriguez, from El Puerto de Santa Maria in Andalucia, and Juana de Soto y Borja, daughter of Pedro de Soto and Beatriz de Borja) and Maria de Castrejon y Pacheco (daughter of Antonio de Castrjon, regidor and teniente de alcalde mayor of Patzcuaro, and Leonor Pacheco). I also believe there is some kind of relationship between Isabel de Torres Hinojosa and the alcalde of Leon Juan de Torres Hinojosa (married to Tomasa Barragan) and the provincial of the santa hermandad, another Juan de Torres Hinojosa (married to Maria de Cisneros).

I have a little more information about these families (collateral lines to mine, other children, some dates and referencss, etc.) but this is in general what I have been able to piece together. Is anyone else descended or related to these families or know anything about them?

-Richard

Ornelas and Gascon

Published by Evie –
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Maria Del Refugio Ornelas was the daughter of Benito Ornelas (San Diego de Alejandria) and Ana Rita Del Carmen Gascon Barrera.

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Hello Evie,
Here is what I found for this couple which is also on the online program Wikitree where you can find the sources and additional information. I was hoping to connect to my Ornelas and Perez ancestors from Encarnacion de Diaz. Please let me know if you find additional information on Jose Blas Ornelas and Maria de San Juan Perez.

Best regards
Austin Perez

Generation 1: María del Refugio Ornelas

1. María del Refugio Ornelas: Born 1826. Died [date unknown].

Generation 2: Parents of María del Refugio Ornelas

2. Benito Ornelas: Born Barranca (Arandas), Nueva Galicia [Jalisco, México] abt 1790. Died [date unknown]. Father of 1. Son of 4 & 5.

3. Ana Rita del Carmen Herrera: Born Capulín (Arandas), Nueva Galicia [Jalisco, México] abt 1790. Died [date unknown]. Mother of 1. Daughter of 6 & 7.

Generation 3: Grandparents of María del Refugio Ornelas

4. José Blas Ornelas: Born 1760. Died [date unknown]. Father of 2. Son of 8 & 9.

5. María de San Juan Pérez: Born abt 1760. Died [date unknown]. Mother of 2. Daughter of 10 & 11.

6. José Nicolás de Herrera: Born Capulín (Ayo el Chico), Nueva Galicia [Jalisco, México] abt 1760. Died [date unknown]. Father of 3. Son of 12 & 13.

7. Juana Josefa Gascón: Born abt Jul 1761. Died [date unknown]. Mother of 3. Daughter of 14 & 15.

Generation 4: Great-Grandparents of María del Refugio Ornelas

8. [Great-Grandfather Unknown] Father of 4. Son of 16 & 17.

9. [Great-Grandmother Unknown] Mother of 4. Daughter of 18 & 19.

10. [Great-Grandfather Unknown] Father of 5. Son of 20 & 21.

11. [Great-Grandmother Unknown] Mother of 5. Daughter of 22 & 23.

12. José de Herrera: Born [date unknown]. Died bef 04 Mar 1783. Father of 6. Son of 24 & 25.

13. María Antonia Ascencio de Torres: Born abt 1740. Died [date unknown]. Mother of 6. Daughter of 26 & 27.

14. José Miguel Gascón: Born abt 1740. Died [date unknown]. Father of 7. Son of 28 & 29.

15. Rita de Rivas: Born abt 1740. Died [date unknown]. Mother of 7. Daughter of 30 & 31.

Generation 1: Lugardo Fonseca

1. Lugardo Fonseca: Born 1822. Died [date unknown].

Generation 2: Parents of Lugardo Fonseca

2. Andrés Fonseca: Born abt 1800. Died [date unknown]. Father of 1. Son of 4 & 5.

3. María Petra Rodríguez: Born abt 1800. Died [date unknown]. Mother of 1. Daughter of 6 & 7.

Generation 3: Grandparents of Lugardo Fonseca

4. Rafael Fonseca: Born abt 1780. Died [date unknown]. Father of 2. Son of 8 & 9.

5. Antonia Hernández: Born abt 1780. Died [date unknown]. Mother of 2. Daughter of 10 & 11.

6. Salvador Rodríguez: Born abt 1780. Died [date unknown]. Father of 3. Son of 12 & 13.

7. María Guadalupe Rodríguez: Born abt 1780. Died [date unknown]. Mother of 3. Daughter of 14 & 15.

Comentario

I have as Maria Rita de Ribas Bartola as Joseph Miguel Gascon's wife.

I have juana Josefa Gascon as baptized on 6/July/1761, Ayo el Chico Jalisco

I have Jose Nicolas Herrera as born 19/Jun/1757. This may be a baptismal date

Jose Nicolas Hererra is the son of Jose Cayetano Herrera and Antonia Ascencio de Torres y Alvarez del Castillo {see his ancestry below}

Antonia de Torres is the daughter of Juan Antonio Ascencio de Torres y Camarena Hurtado de Mendoza and Juana Gertrudis Alvarez del Castillo y Zepeda

Jose Caytetano Herrera married Antonia Asencio de Torres in San Agustin Ayo el Chico (Ayotlan) on 16/Feb/1749. Image # 61 film # 280787.

The parents of Conquistador Juan de Baeza are Diego Lopez de Fuenllana and Maria Lopez.

The conquistadors wife, isabel Perez is the daughter of Francisco Santella and his wife who remains unnamed but was the daughter of Cristobal Castillo ( aka Torres ) and Leonor Perez

Descent From conquistador Juan de Baeza to Jose Nicolas Herrera:

Conquistador Juan de Baeza and his wife Isabel Perez are the parents of Catalina Lopez de Fuenllana

Catalina Lopez de Fuenllana married Alonso Lupiana and they are the parents of Maria Lupiana (1)

Maria Lupina married Duarte Fernandez Crespo. They had a daughter named after her mother, Maria Lupina (2)

Maria Lupiana (2) married Juan Alvarez del Castillo (b.1575) and they are the parents of Nicolas Alvarez del Castillo

Nicolas Alvarez del Castillo married Ines Mendoza de la Mora ( daughter of Manuel De la Mora and Juana Avina y Mendoza Avina)
Nicolas and Ines are the parents of Ramon Alvarez del Castillo

Ramon Alvarez del Castillois married to Maria De Magana "Ulloa o Vargas de Sahagun" (daughter of Andres Jimenez de Magana and Beatriz Vargas de Sahagun)
Ramon Alvarez del Castillo and M D Magana are the parents of Nicolas Alvarez del Castillo

Nicolas Alvarez del Castillo and Thomasa Zepeda (daughter of Francisco Zepeda and Anna Morfin de Liebana)
Nicolas andThomasa are the parents of Juana Gertrudis Alvarez del Castillo

Juana Gertrudis Alvarez del Castillo married Juan Antonio Ascencio de Torres and they are the parents of

Antonia Ascencio de Torres is married to Jose Cayetano Herrera

They are the parents of Jose Nicolas Herrera who married Juana Josefa Gascon

The Herrera family came to Jalisco from Michoacan. I have more information on the Herrera and a strong lead that I have not had the time to follow up on because of I'm currently working on other projects. A search of Maria de Jesus Herrera and Ruperto del Refugio Herrea informacion matrimonial may lead to connecting Jose cayetano Herrera to tree that I have already compiled on Ruperto del Refugio Herrera side. Rupert's line goes back to the first Herrera in Ayo el Chico/arandas area that came from Michoacan.

Maria de Jesus Herrera is a great grand daughter of Jose Nicolas Herrera and Juana Josefa Gascon. She was married on 8/Jan/1879 arandas. Jalisco

I worked on this information many years ago when I was researching the genealogy of my first cousin Doctor Edmundo Andrade Romo.

Edmundo just published a book that has some of my research. I have not read the book yet, but his mother, my maternal aunt called me the day before yesterday to tell me that it was finally published and that the book would soon be in my hands. She warned me that the publisher made some mistakes and that a second edition is in the works to make the corrections. This is his fathers branch whose family was from Arandas/Ayo el Chico.

I have more info

R A Ricci

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I was looking through old postings and I chanced upon this one, which mentions the following pair:

Nicolas Alvarez del Castillo & Tomasa de Zepeda y Morfin de Liebana

In the Alvarez del Castillo chapter of his book, Retoños de España en la Nueva Galicia, Mariano Gonzalez Leal states that Nicolas Alvarez del Castillo, “Hizo información matrimonial en Chilchota el 5 de agosto de 1705 para casar con doña Tomasa de Zepeda y Mofrin de Liébana, hija de don Francisco y de doña Anna.”

I have searched the Chilchota relevant films and I can’t locate it. Can someone please direct me to it?

Thank you.

Comentario

where do I find documentation for my line before Juan Alvarez del Castillo and Maria Lupiana who are my 9th Great grandparents through my maternal side? I have not been able to find anything earlier than them.
my line is
Juan Alvarez del Castillo and Maria Lupiana parents of
Nicolas Alvarez del Castillo and Ynes Mendosa parents of
Nicolas Alvarez del Castillo and Josefa Torres y Guerrero parents of
Esteban Alvarez del Castillo and Gertrudis Valencia parents of
Eucelia/Celia Alvarez del Castillo and Manuel Gerardo Gutierrez parents of
Benito Gutierrez and Guadalupe Suniga parents of
Ygnacio Gutierrez and Petra Paula Mendoza parents of
Ventura Gutierrez and Petra Vega parents of
Longino Gutierrez and Merced Munguia parents of
Marcelino Gutierrez and Rafaela Villanueva parents of my Mother
Dolores Gutierrez and Chet Castanon parents of
Erlinda Castanon

Your research is amazing!

Comentario

I was looking into the Gascón-Rivas lines and I found Joseph Miguel Gascón’s burial record way over in Tamaulipas! It begins on the bottom right hand side of image 109 and continues on the following image. I am confidant it’s him because it mentions his late spouse, María Rita Bartola de Rivas. It also adds that he was a “Mtro de escuela q. fue en la Villa de Camargo”. So, I am guessing he taught in what is now modern day Ciudad Camargo, Tamaulipas, México. His cause of death was tabardillo, which I think means typhus.

Comentario

Almost three years ago, I wrote in this thread:

“The conquistadors wife, Isabel Perez is the daughter of Francisco Santella and his wife who remains unnamed, but was the daughter of Cristobal Castillo ( aka Torres ) and Leonor Perez”,

But thanks to Manny, we now have Francisco Santaella’s wife’s name. It is “Beatriz Torres.” We also now know that Beatriz had a brother named “Diego Castillo” who was a miner in Fresnillo, Zacatecas. These two are the only named children of Cristobal Castillo and Leonor Perez (born in Sevilla, Spain). Previously I had only had the information that they had “only one daughter.” Now we know they also had a son.

Here is the link to Manny’s discovery: http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/24124

Published by R.A.Ricci (no verificado) – Vie, 2015-05-08 12:57 | Enlace permanente

Comentario

Hello Evie,

Benito Ornelas is the son of Jose Blas Ornelas and Maria de San Juan Perez

Benito was married to Ana Rita del Carmen on 28Feb1808 in Santa Maria de Guadalupe, Arandas

Ana Rita del Carmen is the daughter of Jose Nicolas Herrera and Juana Josefa Gascon

Jose Nicolas Herrera and Juana Josefa Gascon were married 4/Mar/1783 in San Agustin,Ayo El Chico,Jalisco,Mexico
Film number: 280788

You have Ana Rita del Carmen using her mothers maiden name of Gascon which was common in those days.

Good luck in your research,

R A Ricci

GOMEZ DE BEDOYA / ARIAS DE BEDOYA

Published by jrefugioghermosillo –
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Hola prim@s,

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Comentario

Hello family....I'm searching for a Faustina Bedoya de Arias. All I have is that her and her husband were "vecinos" of the Villa de Camora (Zamora). She was the mother of Simon Arias. And the wife of Alonso de Villapando. I have the marriage document of Simon from 1608 in Santa Fe. I believe Alnoso is my link to Spain on my Villalpando line. Any information on Faustina would be awesome... I have the document if you would like to view it.

Thank you,

Amalia Hernandez

Comentario

Hello All,

Manny, while looking through some of the Mexican Inquisition Records on familysearch.org, I ran across an expediente related to Beatriz and Juana Arias de Bedoya:

Denuncia contra Fray Juan Rangel por solicitud, Pueblo de los Tres Reyes, Michoacan - 1621

In the documents we learn that the parents of Beatriz Arias de Bedoya and Juana Arias de Bedoya were Francisco Catalan and Isabel Arias. We also learn that Beatriz and Juana had two younger brothers, Bernabe and Alonso. In the expediente we further learn that both Juana and Beatriz were naturales de Tinguindin and were around 20 and 22 years of age, respectively. I believe that Beatriz Arias de Bedoya married Pedro Martin Barragan and Juana married Juan de Silva in Zamora in the early 1600s.

I find it interesting that Baltazar Gomez de Bedoya sometimes used Baltazar Gomez Catalan. Could it be that Francisco Catalan and Isabel Arias were also the parents of Baltazar Gomez de Bedoya, since the bautizmos for Baltazar's children are not far off from the bautizmos of Beatriz and Juana?

In any case, I believe this info to be a piece to the puzzle of the Arias/Gomez de Bedoya family.

Daniel Serna Valencia

Comentario

Great find! That’s funny - last weekend, I also started going through the inquisicion indexes. Really cool stuff, lots of limpiezas and interesting procesos. Including this one - thanks for sharing.

Good information: their parents were already dead and they were living with Carlos de Bonilla, their padrastro. So either Ysabel Arias married twice, or Bonilla adopted them? Beatris Arias de Bedoya & Juana de Bedoya sign their names! Very rare, in 1621. I love the diminutives they use for their brothers, “Bernavesico” and “Alosico.”

The crime was super common, from what I've seen in the indexes "Solicitante," "Por solicitar a las hijas de confesion." These guys were predators who preyed on the women of the congregation, single and married!

I have to agree, that Baltasar Gomez Catalan is likely part of this family group. Reveals the status of the Arias/Gomez de Bedoya surname. My ancestor also used Gomez de Bedoya, in place of his paternal surname.

Here's where the proceso against Juan Rangel begins:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSD2-H3Q5-5?i=528&cat=…

Beatriz Arias de Bedoya also turned herself in to the Santo Oficio for using herbs associated with witchcraft. Her proceso begins on img546:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSD2-H3QY-N?i=545&cat=…

Thanks!
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Comentario

Hi Manny,

Here is what I have in my notes regarding Bedoya families.

Saludos
Austin Perez

1. Zamora, 30 mayo 1613: bautismo de Diego, hijo de Juan < ? > y Isabel del Castillo, fueron padrinos el bachiller Cristóbal < ? > beneficiado de < Aranza? > y Francisca de Bedoya doncella, hija de Juan Gómez de Bedoya y Ana de Cárdenas su mujer
"México, Michoacán, registros parroquiales y diocesanos, 1555-1996," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-GY3K-JP?cc=1883388&wc=3NTR… : 20 May 2014), Zamora > Sagrario > image 10 of 607; parroquias Católicas, Michoacan (Catholic Church parishes, Michoacan).

2. Tlazazalca, 9 marzo 1640: bautismo de Josefa hija de Alonso Magaña y Mariana de Bedoya, padrinos don Fernando Bocanegra y doña Beatriz Magaña
"México, Michoacán, registros parroquiales y diocesanos, 1555-1996," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-P2QB-C?cc=1883388&wc=3NT1-… : 20 May 2014), Tlazazalca > San Miguel > image 19 of 564; parroquias Católicas, Michoacan (Catholic Church parishes, Michoacan).

3. Tlazazalca, 18 marzo 1644: bautismo de Juan hijo de Francisco de Torres y María de Bedoya, su mujer, padrino Francisco de Chávez
"México, Michoacán, registros parroquiales y diocesanos, 1555-1996," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-P2QY-Y?cc=1883388&wc=3NT1-… : 20 May 2014), Tlazazalca > San Miguel > image 30 of 564; parroquias Católicas, Michoacan (Catholic Church parishes, Michoacan).

4. Tlazazalca, 22 julio 1646: bautismo de Alonso hijo de Alonso Magaña y Mariana de Bedoya, padrinos Nicolás <?> y doña María Arias
"México, Michoacán, registros parroquiales y diocesanos, 1555-1996," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-P2QJ-5?cc=1883388&wc=3NT1-… : 20 May 2014), Tlazazalca > San Miguel > image 35 of 564; parroquias Católicas, Michoacan (Catholic Church parishes, Michoacan).

5. Tlazazalca, 30 mayo 1647: Melchor hijo de Francisco de Torres y María de Bedoya, padrinos Agustín de Ayala y Catalina de Chávez, su mujer
"México, Michoacán, registros parroquiales y diocesanos, 1555-1996," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-P2QN-L?cc=1883388&wc=3NT1-… : 20 May 2014), Tlazazalca > San Miguel > image 36 of 564; parroquias Católicas, Michoacan (Catholic Church parishes, Michoacan).

6. Aguascalientes, 5 marzo 1685: matrimonio de José Arias de Bedoya, hijo de Juan Arias de Bedoya y Luisa Calvillo, ya difuntos, con doña Gertrudis Pichardo
"México, Aguascalientes, registros parroquiales, 1620-1962," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-65T9-32D?cc=1502404&wc=M6Q… : 20 May 2014), Aguascalientes > Asunción de María > image 155 & 156 of 325; parroquias Católicas, Aguascalientes (Catholic Church parishes, Aguascalientes).

7. Ocotlán, 28 octubre 1694: 28 oct 1694 Cristóbal Rojo, natural de la villa de Zamora, hijo de Cristóbal Rojo y de dona María Arias de Bedoya con doña Inés Hurtado de Mendoza hija de Nicolás Navarro de Alcocer y de doña Josefa Hurtado de Mendoza
"México, Jalisco, registros parroquiales, 1590-1979," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-G55F-Y?cc=1874591&wc=3J6F-… : 28 June 2014), Ocotlán > Ocotlán > image 565 of 569; parroquias Católicas, Jalisco (Catholic Church parishes, Jalisco)

Comentario

Hola prim@s,

Here are my notes on this matrimonio, followed by notes on Baltasar Gomez Catalan cc Catalina de Valdes:

Alonso Magaña and Mariana de Bedoya married 17 Apr 1640, San Miguel, Tlazazalca;

- On 10 Dec 1641, baptized was Maria, hija de Alonso Magaña cc Mariana CHAVEZ. Padrino Diego Ochoa Garibay presbitero.
- On 30 Aug 1648, baptized was Bartolome, hijo de Alonso Magaña cc Mariana de Bedoya, padrinos were Andres Magaña and Maria de Bedoya muger de Francisco Torres.
- On 01 Aug 1649, Francisco Torres Guerrero cc Maria de Bedoya baptized Francisca, padrinos were Bartolome de Bedoya and his sister Mariana de Bedoya muger de Alo Magaña.

Alonso Magaña and Mariana de Bedoya have continuous contact with Francisco Torres Guerrero cc Maria de Bedoya; this Maria de Bedoya is daughter of Juan Barajas cc Francisca de Bedoya (daughter of Juan Gomez de Bedoya cc Ana de Cardenas), and my guess is, Mariana de Bedoya (and her brother Bartolome) are also their children. When she baptized her daughter Maria, Mariana used “Chavez” - perhaps her paternal grandmother’s name, Ana de Chavez cc Pedro de Barajas?

- On 19 May 1677, Bartolome Magaña Bedoya (son of Alonso Magaña cc Mariana de Bedoya) married Lorenza de Ayala Chavez (daughter of Pedro de Ayala cc Ysabel Chavez). They were dispensed at 3 degrees in 2 lines, on 05 Mar 1677, but the dispensa doesn’t explain the relationships. My guess is, one of the relationships is through "Chavez," so Ysabel Chavez would be another of grandchild of Pedro Barajas cc Ana Chavez?

Pedro Barajas cc Ana Chavez
Juan Barajas-1- ?
Mariana Chavez-2-Ysabel Chavez
Bartolome Magaña-3-Lorenza Ayala

"Chavez Romero" appears in Zamora and in Tlazazalca; is Ana Chavez cc Pedro Barajas a Chavez Romero?

BALTASAR GOMEZ CATALAN cc CATALINA DE VALDES

On their marriage records of their children, he is sometimes referred to as Baltasar Gomez de Bedoya, and she as Catalina de Avalos.

a. Nicolas Gomez Valdes, b. 25 Jan 1637, d. 06 Feb 1637
b. Juana de Avalos y Valdes, b. 12 Feb 1639, pp Diego Mendez Torres y Juana de Torres su hija; m. Domingo Moreno Rojas, 24 Dec 1656
c. Salvador Gomez Valdes, b. 04 Apr 1645, pp Juan de Silva e Ysabel de Silva Bedoya su hija
d. Micaela de Avalos aka Micaela Arias de Bedoya, m. Juan de Garibay Mendoza, 21 Aug 1667

Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Comentario

Hola a todos:

En el censo de 1683 aparecen tres familias Bedoya, en Pátzcuaro y en Jiquilpan. Están en las páginas 90, 173 y 174 del Libro Partidos y Padrones del Obispado de Michoacán de Alberto Carrillo Cázares, puede verse en línea.

A fines del Siglo XVII en Querétaro existió un grupo de cántabros muy prósperos, encabezados por Don José de Escandón, eran propietarios de los obrajes más grandes para la fabricación de prendas de lana que existió en todo el virreinato, entre ellos hubo uno llamado Pedro Diez de Vedoya.

Saludos

Marcelina

Published by jrefugioghermosillo – Vie, 2017-05-05 09:33 | Enlace permanente

Comentario

Hola prim@s,

Gracias a todos por sus comentarios.

Daniel, I'd be happy to collaborate with you on this dynasty, though I'm still trying to determine if & how my g9s Baltasar Gomez cc Catalina Martinez are linked to them. For now, I'm mining the Patzcuaro & Zamora baptisms, marriages and burials, and getting an idea of who the local family groups are. I've still found no sign of Geronima de Bedoya nor her parents, other than the previously cited records - not even as padrinos, so I wonder if my branch even starts in Zamora? (though the name "Baltasar" was popular with this FG...).

Simona, I checked out Madalena baptized in Chilchota, in Feb 1614; hija de Baltasar Gomes y de Catarina; I'm not sure about her, since most of the families on that page appear to be Indios, whereas this FG appears to be Espanol. It's possible, though: a Madalena de Bedoya was madrina for Nicolas, hijo de Juan Zurita Camacho and Geronima de Bedoya, b. 27 Jul 1624. She would've been 10 years-old.

What is fascinating to me, is the story of Juan Gomez de Bedoya cc Luisa Calvillo, here's his declaration from his IM:

"Dixo que se llama Juan Gomez de Vedoya y que es Criollo de la Ciudad de Pasquaro y hijo de Juo Gomez Suritas y de Jerma de Vedoya difuntos y que siendo de edad de ocho años salio de su tierra y que se vino con un sarriero que traia cosas de Michoacan i a este declarante se quedo en la estancia de S Martin jurisdicion de La Villa de S Felipe en la qual era mayordomo Joseph Calvillo y Siempre a stado en su compañia trese o catorse años y no a echo ausensia para otra parte y Le a stado sirvicado y vino con el dho Joseph Calvillo a este Real (de Marfil)."

Why would parents send their 8 year-old child to a far-off land, 172 miles away, never to see him again? It had to be prearranged that Joseph Calvillo would raise him - was it an apprenticeship/aprendizaje? And what is Joseph Calvillo's and Magdalena Gomez's connection to the Zurita Camacho & Gomez de Bedoya in Patzcuaro? I don't think Magdalena Gomez is a Bedoya, or else Juan and Luisa would've been dispensed. There was a Diego Luis Calvillo cc Juana de Barba Maldonado, in Patzcuaro, who were contemporaries of Juan Zurita Camacho and Geronima de Bedoya; could Diego Luis Calvillo and Joseph Calvillo be related? So many questions...!

I'll keep posting info as I find.

Gracias y saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Comentario

Hola Manny:

Había estudiado el apellido Zurita porque el oidor de la Nueva España de Zurita perteneció al mismo grupo que mi tío 11° Licenciado Juan Ramírez Bravo, para sabe más sobre el Licenciado Alonso puedes revisar el siguiente libro:

http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/publicadigital/libros/lectu…

Mi familia (Ramírez de Coy) tuvo dos estancias de ganado mayor, la segunda fue en Salvatierra (San Nicolás de los Agustinos, cerca de Pátzcuaro) en donde apareció uno de los Zurita. Voy a buscar ese registro para saber si se encuentra relacionado con la persona que estás investigando.

Saludos

Marcelina

Comentario

Manny--

I descend from this couple Da. María Gómez Arias de Bedoya who married Capt. D. Diego Méndez de Sotomayor y Torres de Fuentes, Alcalde Mayor de Zamora--patriarchs to my father's house. I do not have access to my files at the moment, but I will share what I have on our family soon. One thing to note is that Arias de Bedoya and Gómez de Bedoya are interchangeable and descend from the noble house of Bedoya in Bedoya, Valle de Liébana, Cantabria, Spain. There are a lot of loose ends, but I started piecing the Bedoya family a couple of months ago and would love to work on this with someone. Feel free to email if you like.

Daniel Méndez de Torres y Camino

[Spanish]

Manny--

Desciendo de esta pareja Da. María Gómez de Bedoya quien contrajo nupcias con el capitán D. Diego Méndez de Sotomayor y Torres de Fuentes, Alcalde Mayor de Zamora--patriarcas de mi familia. No tengo acceso a mis archivo en este momento pero compartiré lo que tengo esta semana. Algo para tomar en cuenta es que la familia usaba Arias de Bedoya y Gómez de Bedoya sin discreción y que descienden de la nobilísima casa de los Bedoya en la villa de Bedoya, Valle de Liébana en la Montaña (Cantabria). Aun tengo varias piezas de la rompecabezas que no he conseguido juntar pero seguramente lo haré con el tiempo a menudo que datos adicionales salgan a luz.

Daniel Méndez de Torres y Camino

Last Name Spelling Help Please

Published by rojasdelgado –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hi everyone, any help would be appreciated. I have over 20 records from my 5th Great Grandmother Maria Paulina. Her last name is spelled so many different ways by the priest and scribers.

Comentarios

Comentario

In a baptismal record of a granddaughter of Manuel Salvador Rojas and Maria Paulina, the surname given for Maria Paulina is “Sartiga.” I also found in another record that Maria Paulina Sartiga was also sometimes known as Maria Paulina Gonzalez. I also found that the family did have branches in Jalisco and Nayarit.

As to the correct spelling question, the answer is that there was not just one way of spelling a word or name in the 1600 and 1700’s. It wasn’t until a mass produced dictionary was written and sold that people began to identify words and names to “one spelling.”

Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Hi Rick,

It might prove useful if you shared with us more about the branches of Jalisco and Nayarit?

And I would also like to know who has more information about these Rojas. I have a Petra de Rojas (daughter of Manuel and Paulina) married to a Felipe Santiago de León y Panico (that last one, another interesting surname, not usually present in this forum).

Does anyone know anything about the the community in Amatlán de Jora? I read that it was once a thriving "Real de Minas", but that it practically disappeared in the middle of the 19th century.

As another possible lead, I found a "don Miguel de Rojas, alcalde de la Santa Hermandad y capitán a guerra en Hostotipaquillo, Real de Minas de Jora, etcétera", it looks like he might have been the owner of the Hacienda de Ambas Aguas, close to Jora.

Any thoughts??

Comentario

"And I would also like to know who has more information about these Rojas. I have a Petra de Rojas (daughter of Manuel and Paulina) married to a Felipe Santiago de León y Panico (that last one, another interesting surname, not usually present in this forum).

Does anyone know anything about the the community in Amatlán de Jora? I read that it was once a thriving "Real de Minas", but that it practically disappeared in the middle of the 19th century.

As another possible lead, I found a "don Miguel de Rojas, alcalde de la Santa Hermandad y capitán a guerra en Hostotipaquillo, Real de Minas de Jora, etcétera", it looks like he might have been the owner of the Hacienda de Ambas Aguas, close to Jora."

Hello Diego,

I am a direct descendant of the Rojas Family you are referring to. As the records show, they settled in Amatlan de Jora, where some remained. The children married into families from de la Paz, Villa Vicensio, Huizar and de Leon. The majority moved to Hostotipaquillo where many Rojas relatives still live today.

I searched every record available page by page from Amatlan de Jora, but could not find where Manuel Salvador Roxas and Maria Paulina Sartiga originated from. A record shows they were in Ixtlan del Rio, Nayarit for the birth of one of their sons in 1769.

I would like to know more about the reference you made for Don Miguel de Rojas, Alcalde y Capitan, etc. If you have a link to this reference so I can look into it and maybe find more clues.

Thank You
Ruben Rojas

Comentario

Hola a todos:

El apellido Sartiga o sus variantes parece ser de origen vasco. De ahí que puedan existir diversas ortografías y pronunciaciones al pasar del euskera al castellano.

Sería interesante investigar su origen o significado en euskera.

Saludos

Marcelina

Comentario

Hola Marcelina,

Estoy de acuerdo, suena un poco vasco. Aunque por ahora no he encontrado en el País Vasco nada que se le parezca, y eso que tienen muy buenos registros. A ver si encontramos algo más de por aquí sobre ellos antes de saltar el Atlántico.

Comentario

Hola Rubén,

Muchas gracias por responder.

Me interesa mucho hablar contigo porque poca gente en este foro tiene a estos Rojas. Pues yo no sé bien por dónde seguir, porque me aparecen dos hijos del matrimonio de Felipe de León y de Petra de Rojas bautizados en Bolaños, Jalisco, aunque luego claramente aparecen en Jora. Me falta encontrar el matrimonio de Felipe y Petra para darme una idea de dónde se casaron, y desde qué momento están en Jora (encontré una referencia a su matrimonio en Familysearch, pero al buscar el acta en el libro, jamás la encontré en la fecha que pone ahí).

Sobre los padres de Petra, me pregunto si serían de Jora o de Bolaños. Leí que las minas de Bolaños sufrieron una gran decadencia desde 1760, quedando prácticamente en el abandono, y parece que mucha gente se fue para Yesca, Jora, Ambasaguas, etcétera. Pero bueno, es solo una teoría.

Sobre el capitán Miguel de Rojas, te envío los enlaces a las referencias que tengo de él hasta ahora:

REAL AUDIENCIA DE GUADALAJARA (1713) http://bpej.udg.mx/ra_civil_reg?id=382

DESCRIPCIONES FRANCISCANAS DE LA PROVINCIA DE SANTIAGO DE XALISCO, Siglo XVIII: https://books.google.be/books?hl=es&id=wZV6AAAAMAAJ&dq=miguel+de+rojas+…

Por ahora no tengo más sobre Miguel de Rojas.

En fin, ojalá que juntos podamos descubrir algo más de los Rojas Sartiga. Yo feliz te envío todas las actas que tengo, para ver si juntos vemos algo que uno solo no consigue.

Saludos

Comentario

Hola Diego,

Gracias por la informacion. Tengo tres paginas de la imagen de matrimonio de Petra Roxas y Felipe de Leon, pero no links. No pense guardar los links de familysearch cuando los encontre. Si gustas, te puedo mandar imagines por email attachment, porque no se como hacer un upload en Nuestros Ranchos.

Ruben R

Comentario

Muchas gracias Rubén.

Te escribo por privado para pasarte mi e-mail. Ojalá podamos encontrar algo. Así te paso también las actas que yo tengo.

Published by victorianonavarro (no verificado) – Mar, 2013-05-21 22:35 | Enlace permanente

Comentario

I've never heard such surname, but doing a google search, the one which currently seems to be an existing family name is Zartiga.

Victoriano Navarro

Comentario

Thank You Victoriano, Zartiga is what I found also. I just wanted to check with someone else in the group. It is not a very common surname, in fact, I never heard of it until now.
Thanks Again
Ruben Rojas Delgado

Dispensa Question - Juan de Dios Baldivia and Petronila Alba / Pedro Baldivia and Gertrudis Alba

Published by mflores –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hello,

Comentarios

Comentario

Here you go!

Juan de Dios Valdivia and Petronila de Alva

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-DVQ1-Y?i=147&wc=3JWL-K…

Pedro Valdivia(1) (son of Juan Valdivia and Petrona de Hermosillo) and Juana de Alva

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-DV7Q-3?i=141&wc=3JWL-K…

BE CAREFUL: There is also another Pedro Valdivia(3) son of Pedro Valdivia(2) and Juana de Alva (I am not sure if they the same couple as Pedro Valdivia(1) and Juana Gertrudis de Alva from your post) who married 1) Anna Gonzalez de Hermosillo and 2) Cayetana Perez de Vargas

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-65TQ-4?i=71&wc=3J47-C6…

The reason I say BE CAREFUL is that Pedro Valdivia(3) was married to Anna Gonzalez de Hermosillo in 1720.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-F4BH-9?i=95&wc=3JHC-GP…

Pedro Valdivia(1) was born in 1692:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-VK91-7S?i=73&wc=3JCC-C…

Therefore there is a very tight timeline to allow for the couple Pedro Valdivia(1) (son of Juan Valdivia and Petrona de Hermosillo) and Juana de Alva, to be the same couple as Pedro Valdivia(2) and Juana de Alva.

Furthermore, there is dispensa 1778 in the Sagrada Mitra book:
Cuquio. Jal. Enero 16 de 1745. Exp 20.- Dispensa de tres impedimentos, el uno de tercero grado, y los dos de cuarto grado de consanguinidad - Ignacio Antonio de Valdivia, español de 20 años de edad, originario y vecino de esta feligresía de San Phelipe de Cuquio. hijo legítimo de Don Pedro Valdivia y de Doña Ana González de Hermosillo. difunta, con Doña María Antonia González de Islas, española de 17 años de edad, originaría y vecina de esta feligresía, hija legítima de Don Miguel González de Islas y de Doña María Theresa de Alva
Bocanegra. Declaración del pretenso: Don Sebastián González de Hermosillo, mi abuelo materno, y Doña Juana González de Hermosillo, abuela materna de la pretensa, fueron hermanos, y así siguen, que Doña Ana González mi madre y Doña María Theresa de Alva, por ser hijas de las arriba mencionadas, se hallan en segundo grado igual, y por consiguiente la pretensa y yo en tercero grado igual. Don Alonso de Alva. mi bisabuelo paterno, y Don Joseph de Alva, bisabuelo materno de la pretensa, fueron hermanos, y Doña Juana de Alva, mi abuela, y Don Andrés de Alva. abuelo de la pretensa, fueron primos hermanos, y Don Pedro
Valdivia, mi padre, y Doña María Theresa de Alva, madre de la pretensa, primos segundos que es tercero grado. Y Don Nicolás Romero de Chávez, bisabuelo paternode la pretensa, y Doña María Romero de Chávez, mi bisabuela materna, fueron hermanos, y Doña María Romero, abuela paterna de la pretensa, y Doña Theresa de la Mora, mi abuela materna, se hallan en segundo grado, por ser hijas de los arriba mencionados, y Don Miguel González de Islas, padre de la pretensa, por ser hijo de Doña María Romero, y Doña Ana González de Hermosillo, mi madre es
hija de dicha Doña Theresa de la Mora, se hallan en tercero grado. Se otorgó la dispensa en la Ciudad de Guadalajara. en 29 de enero de 1745. 16 fojas.

This dispensa shows the father of Juana de Alva who married Pedro Valdivia(2) was Alonzo de Alva. This conflicts with the dispensa for Pedro Valdivia(1) and Juana de Alva at top of this post which shows her father being Pedro de Alva.

GOOD LUCK

Missing son of Lamberto de Alba & Librada

Published by Abraham –
Foros
Genealogy Research

My grand father Pedro de Alba (christianed as Jose Pedro) wrote a book of his early years in San Juan de los Lagos, and states that he had a younger brother named "Pablo" (could be Jose Pablo, followi

Comentarios

Not sure if this is an important will

Published by 245luigi –
Foros
Genealogy Research

I found this will for widow Maria Sotomayor. I cant read it and I have no idea if its important but here it is, starting bottom left:

Comentarios

Comentario

Hi Alex,

Where did you pull that from, and what is the date range? Looks like early 1600s. Viuda de Diego de Aguiar, had an hijo natural before she married named Francisco; I see a legitimate child named Micaela de Sotomayor. I'm going to say this is Guadalajara?

Thanks!
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Comentario

Hi Alex,

Not really, but it's interesting. I had this Maria de Sotomayor as Maria de Torquemada; she and Diego de Aguiar baptized Micaela 16 Oct 1615 in Guadalajara. The 1627 testamento mentions a daughter named Micaela, age 12, so I'm sure it's the same couple. I was researching women with the Torquemada surname, thinking they might somehow be related to Cristobal Ordones cc Francisca Ruiz Farache, since at least 1 of their daughter's used that surname.

I wonder if this Diego de Aguiar is related to Martin de Aguiar Delgadillo cc Mariana de Ulloa y Plasencia?

Thanks!
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Vicente Ferrer Lomelin and Ysabel Rodriguez de Frias

Published by Anónimo (no verificado) –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hello promos,

Does anyone know the ancestors of:

Antonio Lomelin son of _____bisente___ferrer______Lomelin + Isabel Rodriguez de Frias

Comentarios

Comentario

Please analyse the following Marriage dispensation thoroughly. It is exactly what you need. Trust me and open the following link. PLEASE LOOK AT THE TRONCOS DE PARENTESCO

Dispensa matrimonial de Rafael Iñiguez & María de San José Gómez - 24 de diciembre de 1803, Jalostotitlán

Fueron dispensados de dos parentescos de afinidad, ambos en tercer grado igual.

Fuente: Mexico, Jalisco, Catholic Church Records, 1590-1979, Guadalajara, Diócesis de Guadalajara, Matrimonios 1803-1804 [Image 397-404 of 493] -
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18410-9661-28?cc=1874591&wc=…

Comentario

Hi Rick,

I am researching the ancestors of Vicente Ferrer Lomeli (94PW-7QX)) and Ysabel Rodrigues de Frias (9Q1W-8DX) as well. I was just rechecking some research on them and I found your message. Have you found anything else about them since the time you posted this message?

Below is the only lead I have at the moment, about Vicente’s parents.

Here is a link to the marriage certificate of Joseph Gabriel de Lomelin Rodriguez (son of Vicente Ferrer Lomeli and Ysabel Rodrigues de Frias) dated 06/May/1778.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939L-3S9T-V4?i=45&wc=3JXB-K68%3…

The certificate mentions the following individuals:

--- Joseph Gabriel’s brother and his wife are listed as godparents (Juan Francisco De Lomeli y Andrea Gomes (11/Oct/1762).

---And as witnesses it lists one of his brothers-in-law (Pedro Mercardo married to Maria Thomasa de Lomeli – 04/May/1761); also listed as witnesses are Julio de Lomelin and Juan Gabriel de Lomelin which I thought could be Joseph Gabriel’s cousins or uncles.

I also found two brothers with the names Julio de Lomelin and Juan Gabriel de Lomelin in Nochistlan at the time. They were: Julio Joseph Lomelin born in 14/May/1722 and Juan Gabriel de Lomelin born in 12/Sep/1725- both sons of Fernando de Lomelin and Ysabel de Calderon.Based on the year they were born, I believe they are Joseph Gabriel’s uncles and not cousins.

Therefore, at the moment, I think Fernando de Lomelin and Ysabel de Calderon are Vicente Ferrer De Lomeli’s parents. But their names are not listed as parents on Vicente’s marriage to Ysabel Rodrigues, and I haven’t found their names mentioned on any of the grandkids’ baptism certificates I have found so far. The baptism certificates from that area sometimes did not list grandparents, and some marriage certificates did not mention parents.

Other names mentioned as witnesses or godparents on baptism certificates of the children of Vicente Ferrer Lomeli and Ysabel Rodrigues Frias are:
---Francisco Xavier Alvares and Maria Ana Lomeli (On Vicente Ferrer JR’s)
---Benito? Munoz de la Barba and Petra de Lomeli (On Joseph Joachin’s)
---Diego Manuel Villalpando and Ana de Herrera (On Joseph Gabriel’s)
---Nicolas Rodrigues and Melchora de Lomeli (On Maria Nicolaza’s)

I haven’t found much about Ysabel Rodrigues’ parents yet. Only the following clue (just listed above): The baptism certificate of Maria Nicolaza (daughter of Vicente Ferrer Lomeli and Ysabel Rodrigues) listed Nicolas Rodrigues and Melchora Lomelin as godparents; this couple married on 09/FEB/1728 in Nochistlan. Ysabel married Vicente Ferrer Lomeli on 12 FEB 1736. There is an 8 year difference between the marriages of these two couples. So Nicolas could be Ysabel’s brother, but he could also be a young uncle. So that is where I am with Ysabel at the moment. And I do not know who Nicolas’ parents are in any case.

Do you have this book? "Genealogía de Nochistlán antiguo reino de la Nueva Galicia en el siglo XVII según sus archivos parroquiales"

According to this link: http://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/mejia/149/ chapter 15 and chapters 90 to 98 discuss different Rodrigues Frias families from Nochistlan. Ysabel Rodrigues de Frias was born in Nochistlan before or on 1721, so I am hoping her parents are mentioned on that book.

If you find anything else please let me know,

Best Regards
Minerva

Comentario

Dear Minerva,

I have not found the parents of Vicente Ferrer Lomelin and Ysabel Rodriguez de Frias. I stopped looking for them, and have been working on many other projects. I will take out my notes on them next week and compare them to your added information.

I do have the book "Genealogía de Nochistlán antiguo reino de la Nueva Galicia en el siglo XVII según sus archivos parroquiales" After buying this book I was put into contact with the author, Jose Luis Vasquez y Rodriguez de Frias, by one of the members of SHARR. I don't remember if it was Mary Lou, or another member, that brought us together.

Thanks for sharing,
Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Minerva,
I am researching my ancestor Julio Jose de Lomeli and I was excited to see your information above about Julio Joseph de Lomelin. I'd love to be able to confirm that they are the same person.

The info I have is this: my Julio was married to Maria Marcela de los Dolores de Jauregui. They had 3 children that I know of, Maria Antonia de Lomeli (married 3 Dec 1800 in Mexticacan to Jose Santiago de Aguirre), Nicolas Josef de Lomeli (born 1777 in Mexticacan), and Maria de San Jose de Lomeli (married 3 Mar 1783 de Pedro Anastacio Fernandes Cordero).

Any further info you have I'd sure appreciate.
Thank you.
Rick Fernández

Comentario

I have Vincent Ferrer Lomelin being the son of Antonio Lomelin and unknown wife. Antonio was the son of Gabriel Lomelin and Melchora de los Reyes Peres de Frias Delgadillo.

Here are my sources:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-6T99-6R?cc=1874591

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-6BTC-F?i=718&wc=3J47-J…

Comentario

Hi Rick,

Sorry for my late response, I am just seeing everyone’s answers to this post now.
And yes, I believe we are talking about the same Julio Jose de Lomelin (h.l of Fernando Lomelin and Isabel de Calderon)

Julio Joseph Lomeli married Marcela Xaurigui on 09 Jan 1763. Here is their marriage certificate: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-TQ9H-DN?i=29&cc=180445…

The marriage certificate says that Julio Joseph is h.l of Fernando Lomelin and Isabel Henrriquez. I believe this Isabel Henrriquez is the same as Isabel de Calderon since all the other information matches but more information is needed to corroborate that they are the same person.
Marcela de Xaurigui is h.l of Lorenzo de Xaurigui and Ana Ximenes and widow of Xristobal Garcia.

They had the following children that I could see:

-Ana Isabel de Lomeli born on 11/Apr/1763 in Nochistlan, Zacatecas (Note: her godparents were Juan Manuel Basquez and Isabel Calderon).
-Maria Antonia de Lomeli born on 16/Feb/1767 in Nochistlan, Zacatecas.
-Nicolas Josef Santiago Lomelin Xauregui born on 06/Aug/1777 in Mexticacan, Jalisco.
-Jose Rafael de Lomelin married to Maria Olaya Perez on 17/Nov/1802 in Mexticacan, Jalisco.
-Maria de San Jose Lomelin married to Pedro Anastacio Fernandes Cordero on 03/March/1783 in Mexticacan, Jalisco.

And thanks to the much appreciated and wonderful help of Alex Mercado and Steven Hernandez, we now know that Fernando Lomelin and Antonio Lomelin were brothers and sons of Gabriel Lomelin and Melchora de los Reyes.

Regards,
Minerva

Comentario

It would not be weird to see Calderon and Enriquez interchanged in this case. Pedro Enriquez married Isabel Calderon where Isabel Calderon is the daughter of Juan Delgadillo and Maria de la Concepcion Islas and Juan Delgadillo is the son of another Isabel Calderon. I have not researched the ancestry of Isabel who married Hernando Lomelin but my money is on her descending from Pedro Enriquez and Isabel Calderon.

Comentario

It would not be weird to see Calderon and Enriquez interchanged in this case. Pedro Enriquez married Isabel Calderon where Isabel Calderon is the daughter of Juan Delgadillo and Maria de la Concepcion Islas and Juan Delgadillo is the son of another Isabel Calderon. I have not researched the ancestry of Isabel who married Hernando Lomelin but my money is on her descending from Pedro Enriquez and Isabel Calderon.

Another common ancestral link to the British Royal Family and Nueva Galicia

Published by R.A.Ricci –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Another common ancestral link to the British Royal Family and Nueva Galicia.

Comentarios

Comentario

I wrote : “the descent from six generations does make at least a very small imprint”

What I meant to write was that there are : “six lines of descent from this common ancestor to Queen Charlotte, which made at least a small imprint in her physical characteristics.” There may be more than six lines of descent. There is documentation that shows tha she descends six times from an ancestor named “Margarita De Castro e Sousa” eight generations back in this ancestral line.

This example of endogamy is not unusual. I descend from a “Martin del Campo” ancestor from the 1700’s seven times. My wife also descends from this “Josesito Martin del Campo” ancestor through two of her lines. He had two marriages and had many children from both wives. My wife and I are fifth cousins through this ancestor, and sixth cousins many times over.

Rick A. Ricci

Intro de Alba Perez

Published by Abraham –
Foros
Genealogy Research

First of all, thank you for accepting me, This is certainly not my field, but I am familiar with research (biological).

Comentarios

Comentario

Abraham, welcome to Nuestros Ranchos forum.

Lamberto and Librada got married in San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco on 21 Jan 1880.

They were excused of a fourth degree consanginity impediment according to the marriage record:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-G53L-35

They were third cousins. They both were the great-great-grandchildren of José María Pérez Franco as can bee seen on their family trees.They were the great-grandchildren of José María and Antonio, half brothers, and also children of the José María first mentioned.

Lamberto de Alba fam. tree:

https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/de%20Alba-Family-Tree-86

Librada Pérez fam. tree:

https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Perez-Family-Tree-2167

Every underlined name is a link to the page with the information on that individual. Scrolling down on each one of these pages you will find a "Sources" section listing the supporting documentation.

Comentario

Dear Abraham,

I loved your quote:
“If all you are trying to do is essentially the same thing as everyone else, then it’s unlikely you will be very successful.” ~ Michael Porter

The Perez De. Paredes Franco family tree posted on wikitree is incomplete.

Juan Perez De Paredes Is baptized on 7/Sep/1670 in Silao, Guanajuato. He was married in about 1693 to Gertrudis Hermosillo. Juan is the son of Alonso Perez Perestrello and Luisa Paredes y Franco.

Many people have different parents for Alonso Perestrello but I have his parents as the ones that Jaime Holcomb originally named in his church submissions, Diego Rodriguez Herrera (Ferrera) and Isabel Hernandez Muñoz. I am still looking for the “claimed” evidence that names different parents.

Luisa Paredes y Franco is the daughter of Blas Paredes and Ana María Molina y Montoya Franco.

Ana María died in 4/Jun/1660 and is the daughter of Sebastian Franco De Molina and Luisa Montoya.

Sebastian is the son of Pedro Franco VillaDiego (medical doctor/Jewish conversó) and Elvira Vasquez

Dr. Pedro Franco VillaDiego is the son of Rodrigo Franco and Maria VillaDiego.

Rodrigo Franco is the son of Diego Franco, born before 1485 in Villa De Dueñas, Palencia

/////////

Juan Perez De Paredes is the 7th great grandfather of my wife through his daughter Margarita Perez De Paredes who was married to Miguel Galvan De Rojas.

I descend from Juan’s brothers, Blas Perez De Paredes, José Perez de Paredes, Agustín Pérez de Paredes, Alonso Perez Franco.

////////////

Juan Perez De Paredes is married to Gertrudis Hermosillo

Gertrudis is the daughter of Miguel Gonzalez De Hermosillo and María Camarena

Wiktree has Miguel’s parents so I won’t post his ansestral line.

María Camarena is the daughter of Luis Camarena and Mariana Hurtado de Mendoza.

Luis is the son of Francisco Camarena and Luisa Andrea GUTIERREZ De Valdez

Mariana is the daughter of Gonzalo Ramirez Santiyana and Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza.

Isabel is the daughter of María Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza and Rodrigo Cristóbal Olives (This Isabel has a younger sister who also has a first name of Isabel, but the younger sister used the surname Olivares) (Isabel had a child out of wedlock with Luis Padilla Davila y Velasco, my mother descends from this line)

María Isabel is the daughter of Toribio Hernandez Arellano and Isabel Hurtado De Mendoza, ( you can find my previous posts on their ancestry here on nuestrosranchos.)

Rick A. Ricci
Source mygenes2000

Comentario

this couple seems to fit your family and the Alva family goes way back to the 1600 perhaps farther as this line in the 1600 is family to many of the members of nuestrosranchos. Bracamonte, Yslas, Sotomaior etc. Some info does not have sources.

Blas Alva Perez
Deceased • KHXM-S9S​
Maria Adelaida De Jesus Jimenes
1836–Deceased • KCBK-DLV

Where do you ancestral testaments/property titles of Colonial Nueva Galicia (Jalisco,Zacatecas)?

Published by MADERA_32 –
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Genealogy Research

Does anyone know where to look for ancestor's land title or testaments during the colonial period of Nueva Galicia (Jalisco, Zacatecas)?

Comentarios

de Bargas Castaneda in Milpillas Zacatecas

Published by andrea_e –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hello all,

Comentarios

Comentario

Hello Andrea,

You wrote that “The timeline seems a little tight” but sometimes the timelines are tight because of our preconceived notions. Many years ago, when I was studying my Diaz De Leon line, I threw the Duran Diaz De Leon information aside because the timeline wasn’t right as they were married well after the birthdates of the people I thought were their children. . But it wasn’t that the timeline wasn’t right, it was that the parents had five children before they were married. Look for more information that may connect them.

Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Hi Rick

You know, that's a good point, thank you. We might think of them as rigid and conservative about these things, but I've seen a few dispensations mentioning secret babies before the marriage and baptisms of kids born a little too soon after the wedding. I'll keep looking!

Apellidos Hurtado- Vallejo Pérez -De Alba de jalostotitlán Jalisco y alrededores

Published by ivraga –
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Que tal? soy Raúl Hurtado Pérez, oriundo de la ciudad de México pero toda mi
familia es de Jalostotitlán, Jalisco.

Comentarios

Comentario

Hola a todos.

Estoy investigando a Manuel Vallejo Martín del Campo, nacido en Cañadas en 1775, y casado con Juana Berrueco Muñiz.

Tengo como sus padres a Bernardo Miguel Vallejo y Martínez de Alcaraz, y a Agustina Javiera Martín del Campo y Romo de Vivar.
A sus abuelos paternos como: Francisco Vallejo Cornejo y María Gabriela Martínez de Alcaraz y Ulloa.
A sus abuelos maternos como: Nicolás Martín del Campo y María Romo de Vivar.

Si alguien me pudiera echar una mano para encontrar más datos le estaría muy agradecido.

Comentario

The problem with this thread popping up again is that people may falsely believe some of the erroneous statements stating that it is only a myth that there is some Jewish ancestry.

One issue with calling something a “myth” is that people define it differently.

Some people define myth as “a widely held but false belief or idea.” I don’t.

I was taught that a “myth” is a traditional or legendary story, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation. That is, that some myths may be true.

A second issue of calling it a myth is even if you accept my definition then you may still believe that “there is no determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation”. But it is no longer a myth that there is some Jewish and French ancestry in the founding families of Los Altos De Jalisco as I have found solid evidence of Jewish and French ancestors. More Jewish than French, but also many basque ancestors that lived in what is now Southern France. Some of these ancestors that lived in this area of Southern France were not Basque. If we define someone as being French as someone that lived in the area that is now Inside France’s border that exist today, then I have many French ancestors in my family tree.

What I find curious is that the person in this thread that calls them just myths that have been proven false is a relatively close relative of mine. He and I share Jewish and French ancestors.

My Romo De Vivar line has much Jewish ancestry. The Martin del Campo line has proven French roots. And this is just a couple of surnames from this thread that have Jewish and French ancestors. The Cornejo Ramírez line definitely has Jewish ancestry. One of my ancestors through my Rodriguez line descends from a French admiral whose portrait hangs in a museum in Paris France. Toribio Hernandez Arellano’s daughters and other descendants married into the other founding families of Los Altos De Jalisco, and he has both Jewish and French ancestors, along with his Iberian ancestors. Many of these ancestors had converted prior to the mass forced conversions of 1492. Many of these ancestors were under the magnifying glass of the inquisition because they were true converts who took to their new Christian religion which such fervor that they were seen as a threat to “old Catholics,” and accused of going too far and of having “Protestant” practices and beliefs. They didn’t use the word “Protestant”.

I am not claiming to be of majority “French and Jewish” ancestors, but the percentage is not minuscule as many claim.

R.A.Ricci

Comentario

Hola Jose Maria,

Muchas gracias por su ayuda. Yo hablo espanol pero no escribo la idioma muy bien.

Mi abuelo, José Gertrudis (conocido: Gertrudis) Martínez nació en 1850 y me han dicho que el llego a México de Francia con dos hijos (nombres se desconocen - esposa había muerto). Yo no a encontraro cualquier cosa que confirma esta estoria. Los padres de Gertrudis fueron José Martínez Cobarrubia y Julianna Jaure.

Gertrudis se casó con mi abuela, Norberta Cruz Ballejo, en 1899. Ella nació en Tepatitlán en 1882 (también se encuentra como Vallejo). Los padres de me abuela fueron Felipe Vallejo (o Ballejo) n. 1829 y Sixta Cruz o Santa Cruz n. 1841.

Gertrudis y Norberta tuvieron tres hijos: Marina n. 1900 en San José de Gracia; Julio José n. 1902 y María Jesús n. 1904 en Tepatitlán (creo que Maria Jesus murió poco después de nacer porque no estaba con ellos cuando emigraron a Arizona). Mi abuelo tenía dos o tres tiendas en Jalisco, pero no sé dónde. Ellos vivíeron en Nochistlán antes de trasladarse a Morenci, Arizona en 1905. Mi padre, Margarito Benjamin n. 1911 y Santiago n. 1913 nacieron en Morenci, Arizona.

Mi tía Marina (n. 1900) se casó con Eulogio Martínez de la zona de Nochistlán. Tuvieron un hijo, Raúl, nacido en 1921 en Nochistlán y murió 1974 en California. Más tarde ella se casó en Morenci con Antonio Carmona n. 1900 en Nochistlán. Tuvieron dos hijos nacidos en Morenci, Arizona, Rogelio n. 1926, y Clemente n. 1930. El matrimonio terminó y Antonio regreso con Rogelio y Clemente a Nochistlán. Marina vivió y murió en Jaurez, México. Yo penso que los dos hijos quedaron en Nochistlán.

Mi abuelo, Gertrudis Martinez, regreso a Jalisco en 1921 a vender sus tiendas y untes de volver a Arizona, murio en Guadalajara el mismo ano.

Si algo suena familar, yo estaría muy feliz de recibir cualquier información. Una vez más, gracias por su amabilidad de ofrecer su ayuda. Si existe alguna investigación que yo puedo asistirlo, por favor, hágamelo saber.

También estoy investigando en la zona de Cañadas la familia de mi marido - Marentes y Jáuregui:

Cleofas Marentes n. 1876, m. 1916 y Francisa Jauregui n. ? m. 1913 - que nacieron y murieron en Cañadas. Tuvieron 6 hijos, todos nacidos en Cañadas: Isabel Marentes, Merced Marentes (el padre de mi marido) n. 1907 m. 1967, María Dolores Marentes, Tiburcio Marentes, y Jesús Marentes. Tenemos varias familia Marentes en Novolato, Sinaloa, pero nadie allí tiene mas información.

Gracias Jose Maria por su ayuda - es muy apreciada. Sabemos que tenemos familia en estas áreas y que algún día nos gustaría encuentralos.
Saludos cordiales,
Judith Marentes
Plano, Texas

Comentario

Hola, muchas gracias por tu contestacion y en la cual me indicas tus abuelos, por el lado Vallejo, y a continuacion de mencionare algunos datos de esta familia:

El apellido Vallejo viene de Espana y el primer p4ersonaje con este apellido se llamo Antonio de Vallejo, llego con Hernan Cortez, por el ano de 1519, y al cual se le dio

de nombramiento ser el empedrador de la Ciudad de Mexico, un descendiente de este Antonio de Vallejo ) siendo el ancestro mas remoto que conozco) fue otro Antonio

Vallejo que nacio en el Valle de las Amilpas, en Mexico que nacio en 1623, padre a la vez de Jose Vallejo Gordivar, nacido al igual que el anterior en Valle de las Amilpas en 1651, hijo de

este fue Lucas Vallejo Cornejo, que nacio al igual en Mexico en 1688, caso en Tepatitlan ) de acuerdo a informacion del Lic. Mariano Gonzalez Leal) en 1713 con Tomasa o Tomasina

Herrera, padre de Antonio Justo Vallejo que caso con Sra. de apellido Alvarez, padre de Jose Manuel Vallejo que caso con Dominga Reynoso, ya en Jalostotitlan, que en ese tiempo pertenecian a Jalos los siguientes pueblos. San Juan de los Lagos, San Miguel el Alto, Pegueros, Vallejo de Guadalupe, Villa Obregon =ahora Canadas de Obregon, que nacio en 1780, tuvo entre otros hijos a Jose Mariano Vallejo nacio en 1800 y caso con Maria Dolores Ignacia Ramirez Alvarez, padre de Jose Guadalupe Vallejo Ramirez que nacio en 1823, caso con Sra. Enriquez Ramirez, padres de Silverio Vallejo Enriquez =este es mi tatarabuelos), que caso con JUlia Casillas Cruz, padres de Porfirio Vallejo Casillas nacio en 1873 en Jalos y caso con Marcelina MOra Vallejo, padres de mi abuelo Cecilio Vallejo Mora nacio 22nov 1913, caso con Gumercinda Vallejo Hurtado, siendo su tia septima, ya que es descendiente de Anastacio hermano de Jose Manuel Vallejo, Cecilio y Gumercianda fueron los padres de mi papa Andres Vallejo Vallejo que3 nacio 18 abril 1935 caso en 27 feb 1957 con Maria de los Angeles Mercado Padilla, teniendo de hijos a Andres, Roberto,

Jose Maria que es tu servidor y Dora de los Angeles, yo naci el 09 agosto 1963, case en Jalos el 21 mayo 1987 con Yolanda Garcia Padilla, y mis hijos son Jose Maria que nacio 10 mayo 1989, Yolanda Estefania nacio 09 agosto 1991, Andres Omar nacio 27 diciembre 1996 y Octavio Alberto nacio 05 octubre 2001.

Tu desciendes tambien de estos Vallejo nomas desconozco en donde se entronca con mis ancestros, ya que Lucas fue el genearca de la mayoria de los Vallejo de Tepatitlan, de hecho tengo conocimiento que hubo un presidente municipal de Tepatitlan de nombre Jose Maria Vallejo en el ano de 1837 y ahi en Tepa hay muchas familias Vallejo que es te tu tronco familiar.

Bueno me dio gusto compartir contigo esta informacion y lamento no poder ayudarte con los datos que me das, ya que son algunas generaciones mas las que se necesitan para poder establecer

tu origen ya que hay muchas ramificaciones, pero me dio la oportunidad de saludarte y establecer comunicacion y espero sigamos asi.

Bueno hasta pronto y saludos no sin antes felicitarte que todavia te comunicas en espanol que es perfectamente entendible y aunque se te dificulte considero es muy satisfactorio comunicarte en el idioma de tus padres.

Me despido con mucho afecto, y recibe saludos de mi parte y si algun dia vienes a Jalostotitlan, Jal. que esta a 53 kilometros de Tepatitlan aqui tienes a un amigo que le dara gusto conocerte personalmente y estrechar los lazos familiares aunque un poco remotos pero con mucho gusto.

Hasta pronto.

Jose Maria Vallejo Mercado.

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: windmillbb@aol.com
> Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 19:32:46 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Family Martinez y Ballejo o Vallejo
>
> Hola Jose Maria,
>
> Muchas gracias por su ayuda. Yo hablo espanol pero no escribo la idioma muy bien.
>
> Mi abuelo, José Gertrudis (conocido: Gertrudis) Martínez nació en 1850 y me han dicho que el llego a México de Francia con dos hijos (nombres se desconocen - esposa había muerto). Yo no a encontraro cualquier cosa que confirma esta estoria. Los padres de Gertrudis fueron José Martínez Cobarrubia y Julianna Jaure.
>
> Gertrudis se casó con mi abuela, Norberta Cruz Ballejo, en 1899. Ella nació en Tepatitlán en 1882 (también se encuentra como Vallejo). Los padres de me abuela fueron Felipe Vallejo (o Ballejo) n. 1829 y Sixta Cruz o Santa Cruz n. 1841.
>
> Gertrudis y Norberta tuvieron tres hijos: Marina n. 1900 en San José de Gracia; Julio José n. 1902 y María Jesús n. 1904 en Tepatitlán (creo que Maria Jesus murió poco después de nacer porque no estaba con ellos cuando emigraron a Arizona). Mi abuelo tenía dos o tres tiendas en Jalisco, pero no sé dónde. Ellos vivíeron en Nochistlán antes de trasladarse a Morenci, Arizona en 1905. Mi padre, Margarito Benjamin n. 1911 y Santiago n. 1913 nacieron en Morenci, Arizona.
>
> Mi tía Marina (n. 1900) se casó con Eulogio Martínez de la zona de Nochistlán. Tuvieron un hijo, Raúl, nacido en 1921 en Nochistlán y murió 1974 en California. Más tarde ella se casó en Morenci con Antonio Carmona n. 1900 en Nochistlán. Tuvieron dos hijos nacidos en Morenci, Arizona, Rogelio n. 1926, y Clemente n. 1930. El matrimonio terminó y Antonio regreso con Rogelio y Clemente a Nochistlán. Marina vivió y murió en Jaurez, México. Yo penso que los dos hijos quedaron en Nochistlán.
>
> Mi abuelo, Gertrudis Martinez, regreso a Jalisco en 1921 a vender sus tiendas y untes de volver a Arizona, murio en Guadalajara el mismo ano.
>
> Si algo suena familar, yo estaría muy feliz de recibir cualquier información. Una vez más, gracias por su amabilidad de ofrecer su ayuda. Si existe alguna investigación que yo puedo asistirlo, por favor, hágamelo saber.
>
> También estoy investigando en la zona de Cañadas la familia de mi marido - Marentes y Jáuregui:
>
> Cleofas Marentes n. 1876, m. 1916 y Francisa Jauregui n. ? m. 1913 - que nacieron y murieron en Cañadas. Tuvieron 6 hijos, todos nacidos en Cañadas: Isabel Marentes, Merced Marentes (el padre de mi marido) n. 1907 m. 1967, María Dolores Marentes, Tiburcio Marentes, y Jesús Marentes. Tenemos varias familia Marentes en Novolato, Sinaloa, pero nadie allí tiene mas información.
>
> Gracias Jose Maria por su ayuda - es muy apreciada. Sabemos que tenemos familia en estas áreas y que algún día nos gustaría encuentralos.
> Saludos cordiales,
> Judith Marentes
> Plano, Texas
>

Comentario

Hola Judith, tu abuelo José Gertrudis Martín Jáuregui, es hijo de José Brígido Martín Covarrubias y María Juliana Jáuregui Íñiguez. Por lo que tu línea de Martínez es en realidad Martín, que a su vez vienen de los Martín del Campo. Tu linea de Martín es como sigue:

1.- José Gertrudis Martín Jáuregui (1850).

2.- José Brígido Martín Covarrubias (1821).

3.- José Toribio Martín del Campo (1785) cy. María Paulina de Jesús Covarrubias Ramírez.

4.- José de los Santos Martín del Campo (1745) cy. Ubalda Rafaela de Alba.

5.- Lázaro Martín del Campo (1704) cy. María Feliciana Jiménez de Castro.

6.- Lázaro Martín del Campo (1675) cy. Isabel Tiscareño de Molina.

7.- Lázaro Martín del Campo (1654) cy. Catarina Ramírez de Hermosillo.

8.- Lázaro Martín del Campo (1608) cy. María López de la Cruz.

En cuanto a tu linea de Vallejo es como sigue:

1.- Norberta Vallejo Santa Cruz (1882)

2.- Felipe Vallejo Ramírez (1829)

3.- José Mariano Vallejo Ramírez (1799) cy. María Ignacia Sinforosa Ramírez Álvarez.

4.- Manuel Vallejo (aprox. 1779) cy. Dominga Reynoso.

Espero esto te sea de utilidad. Además verás que la historia de que tu abuelo José Gertrudis de que era francés es falsa. Por lo regular son mitos que existen aquí en los Altos, pero que poco a poco se han ido desmitificando.

L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
Tel.: 3781095311
www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez

Comentario

> From: georgio_2386@hotmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 10:23:11 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Family Martinez y Ballejo o Vallejo
>

Hola Judith, me dio gusto que un amigo de Tepatitlan, pudiera despejar dudas dudas que ya tengo la informacion que faltaba.

Tu ancestro Felipe era hermano de Jose Guadalupe Vallejo Ramirez, mi ancestro nacio en 1823 y tu ancestro en 1829, lo unico que cambia es que el Sr. Jorge Luis Ramirez tiene comno esposa de Jose Mariano a Maria Dolores Sinforosa Ramirez Alvarez y yo tengo a Maria Dolores Ignacia Ramirez Alvarez, hija de Ignacio Bartolo Ramirez y Maria Guadalupe Alvarez Tostado, y por lo demas todo coincide.

Y por lo que se refiere a Martinez, hubo cambio de apellido por error de los curas civiles que en algunos casos el apellidarse Martin ellos decian que Martin era nombre y que el apellido era Martinez, caso totalmente erroneo, ya que al mutilarse el apellido Martin del Campo, la mayoria tomo Martin, otros Campos y otros ) principalmento en Tepa, conservaron el Martin del Campo.

Son descendientes de Bartolome Martin del Campo, que nacio en Revilla del Campo en Espana, padre de Lazaro Martin del Campo primero de su nombre que vino a los altos de hecho a San Juan de los Lagos, Jal. que es la cuna de los Martin del Campo lazaro nacio por el ano de 1602 en Revilla del Campo en Espana, de hecho fue uno de los 3 mas ricos de San Juan en su Epoca, de ahi venimos todos los Martin y Campos, siendo el genearca de la mayoria de los de esta region.

Por lo del origen frances es un mito, ya que los franceses estubieron en estas tierras por el ano de 1860n a 1862, y nuestros ancestros tienen mas arraigo a esta fecha, lo de la piel blanca es por que concervaron sus costumbres, raza religion, por ese motivo un historiador le dio en llamar a esta region de los Altos como Un lunar blanco en cuerpo moreno de Mexico, haciendo alucion al color de la piel y mujeres bonitas.

Espero que haya despoejado tu duda, y saludos.

hasta pronto.

Atte.

Josde Maria Vallejo Mercado

Hasta pronto y saludos.

>
> Hola Judith, tu abuelo José Gertrudis Martín Jáuregui, es hijo de José Brígido Martín Covarrubias y María Juliana Jáuregui Íñiguez. Por lo que tu línea de Martínez es en realidad Martín, que a su vez vienen de los Martín del Campo. Tu linea de Martín es como sigue:
>
>
>
> 1.- José Gertrudis Martín Jáuregui (1850).
>
> 2.- José Brígido Martín Covarrubias (1821).
>
> 3.- José Toribio Martín del Campo (1785) cy. María Paulina de Jesús Covarrubias Ramírez.
>
> 4.- José de los Santos Martín del Campo (1745) cy. Ubalda Rafaela de Alba.
>
> 5.- Lázaro Martín del Campo (1704) cy. María Feliciana Jiménez de Castro.
>
> 6.- Lázaro Martín del Campo (1675) cy. Isabel Tiscareño de Molina.
>
> 7.- Lázaro Martín del Campo (1654) cy. Catarina Ramírez de Hermosillo.
>
> 8.- Lázaro Martín del Campo (1608) cy. María López de la Cruz.
>
>
> En cuanto a tu linea de Vallejo es como sigue:
>
>
>
> 1.- Norberta Vallejo Santa Cruz (1882)
>
> 2.- Felipe Vallejo Ramírez (1829)
>
> 3.- José Mariano Vallejo Ramírez (1799) cy. María Ignacia Sinforosa Ramírez Álvarez.
>
> 4.- Manuel Vallejo (aprox. 1779) cy. Dominga Reynoso.
>
>
>
> Espero esto te sea de utilidad. Además verás que la historia de que tu abuelo José Gertrudis de que era francés es falsa. Por lo regular son mitos que existen aquí en los Altos, pero que poco a poco se han ido desmitificando.
>
>
> L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
> Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
> Tel.: 3781095311
> www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez
>
>
>
>
>
>

Comentario

Interesante que mencionas los mitos frances Jorge, aunque si hay bastante frances en Mexico,
yo vengo de frances que esta docomentada pero mas recien de 1800s. Esos mitos de
franceses en Los Altos, solo se dice porque somos gueros, altos y ojos claros con el cabello
lacio. Esta descripcion puede ser cualquier europeo no solo frances. Los espanoles tambien
rellena esta descripcion.

Daniel

> From: georgio_2386@hotmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 10:23:11 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Family Martinez y Ballejo o Vallejo
>
>
> Hola Judith, tu abuelo José Gertrudis Martín Jáuregui, es hijo de José Brígido Martín Covarrubias y María Juliana Jáuregui Íñiguez. Por lo que tu línea de Martínez es en realidad Martín, que a su vez vienen de los Martín del Campo. Tu linea de Martín es como sigue:
>
>
>
> 1.- José Gertrudis Martín Jáuregui (1850).
>
> 2.- José Brígido Martín Covarrubias (1821).
>
> 3.- José Toribio Martín del Campo (1785) cy. María Paulina de Jesús Covarrubias Ramírez.
>
> 4.- José de los Santos Martín del Campo (1745) cy. Ubalda Rafaela de Alba.
>
> 5.- Lázaro Martín del Campo (1704) cy. María Feliciana Jiménez de Castro.
>
> 6.- Lázaro Martín del Campo (1675) cy. Isabel Tiscareño de Molina.
>
> 7.- Lázaro Martín del Campo (1654) cy. Catarina Ramírez de Hermosillo.
>
> 8.- Lázaro Martín del Campo (1608) cy. María López de la Cruz.
>
>
> En cuanto a tu linea de Vallejo es como sigue:
>
>
>
> 1.- Norberta Vallejo Santa Cruz (1882)
>
> 2.- Felipe Vallejo Ramírez (1829)
>
> 3.- José Mariano Vallejo Ramírez (1799) cy. María Ignacia Sinforosa Ramírez Álvarez.
>
> 4.- Manuel Vallejo (aprox. 1779) cy. Dominga Reynoso.
>
>
>
> Espero esto te sea de utilidad. Además verás que la historia de que tu abuelo José Gertrudis de que era francés es falsa. Por lo regular son mitos que existen aquí en los Altos, pero que poco a poco se han ido desmitificando.
>
>
> L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
> Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
> Tel.: 3781095311
> www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez
>
>
>
>
>
>

Comentario

Así es Daniel, hay varios mitos aquí en los Altos de Jalisco basadas tan solo en rasgos físicos y culturales. Como ejemplo están los mitos de que descendemos de franceses y de judíos.

La mayoría de mis bisabuelos eran de ojos de color, y ahora una hermana mía y varios de mis primos tienen los ojos de color, pero hasta hoy no he escuchado a nadie de mi familia que hable sobre algún ancestro francés. Ahora se que es un mito, pero es curioso de que en la mayoría de las familias existe ese mito.

L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
Tel.: 3781095311
www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez

Comentario

Exacto mis abuelos nos dijieron desde chicos que tenemos los ojos claros y gueros porque somos de linaje espanol.
Nunce me han dicho algo de frances. Pero la gente sigue este mito. Mi buen amigo don Mariano Gonzalez
Leal ha escrito sobre los judios y frances y sus mitos en Los Altos, algo de interes.

Daniel Mendez

> From: georgio_2386@hotmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 12:46:25 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Family Martinez y Ballejo o Vallejo
>
>
> Así es Daniel, hay varios mitos aquí en los Altos de Jalisco basadas tan solo en rasgos físicos y culturales. Como ejemplo están los mitos de que descendemos de franceses y de judíos.
>
>
>
> La mayoría de mis bisabuelos eran de ojos de color, y ahora una hermana mía y varios de mis primos tienen los ojos de color, pero hasta hoy no he escuchado a nadie de mi familia que hable sobre algún ancestro francés. Ahora se que es un mito, pero es curioso de que en la mayoría de las familias existe ese mito.
>
> L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
> Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
> Tel.: 3781095311
> www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez
>
>
>
>

Comentario

Muchas gracias Jorge Luis por tu parte en ayudarme buscar me antepasados. La informacion es inestimable para mi y mi familia. Cuando visitarmos Tepa en la primavera, te vamos a buscar porque los daria mucho gusto en conocerte.

Si no es mucha molesta, yo se que voy a tenir algunas preguntas despres que estudie la imformacion que me han dado. La unica cosa que pienso ahora mismo es que me gustaria saber donde encontrastes la informacion de mis antepasados? Me gusta documentar toda la informacion que encuentro.

Gracias y hasta pronto.
Judith (Gerry) Marentes
Plano, Texas
windmillbb@aol.com

Comentario

Claro que si Judith, toda la información que te he proporcionado la he tomado de www.familysearch.org y en muchos otros casos de los archivos parroquiales de las parroquias de Tepatitlán y Jalostotitlán. Siempre que tengo alguna duda en algún registro de la página web antes mencionada trato de revisar físicamente el acta para asegurarme de los datos.

Aquí en Tepa tienen a un amigo para cuando gusten visitarnos.

L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
Tel.: 3781095311
www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez

Comentario

Hola, soy Jose Maria Vallejo Mercado, espero que ahora puedas tener todos tus genearcas, y te envio tus ramas en linea directa.

Felipe Vallejo Ramirez, hermano de Jose Guadalupe Vallejo Ramirez, tatarabuelo de mi padre.

hijos de Jose Mariano Vallejo Reynoso y Maria Dolores Ignacia Ramirez Alvarez,

hijo de Jose Manuel Vallejo Alvarez y Dominga Reynoso.

hijo de Antonio Justo Vallejo Herrera y Sra. Alvarez Tostado este dato te lo debo para enseguida ya que lo tengo en tu casa y ahorita estoy en la oficina.

hijo de Lucas Vallejo Cornejo y Tomasa o Tomasina Herrera.

Hijo de Jose Vallejo Gordivar y Micaela Cornejo.

Hijo de Antonio Vallejo y ?.

Este caballero Antonio Vallejo nacio en Valle de las Amilpas, en Estado de Mexico al igual que Jose y Lucas, y las demas generaciones nacieron en lo que antes era el

Municipio de Jalostotitlan, Jal.

Por el lado Jauregui que anteriormente era solo Jaure, vienen de Nochistlan de Mejia , Zacatecas que fue la primer Guadalajara, fundada en 1535.

Por el lado Covarrubias se avecindaron en lo que hoy es Canadas de Obregon, ya que mi tatarabuelo se llamaba Fermin Covarrubias Gomez, hijo de Jose Covarrubias y Tecla Gomez,

originarios de una comunidad llamese tambien rancho, de nombre de San Jose de la Cal, y tengo entendido que los covarrubias vienen del norte de Jalisco y parte de Zacatecas.

Sin mas de momento recibe saludos.

Atte.

Chema

Sin mas de momento recibe saludos.

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: windmillbb@aol.com
> Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 19:32:46 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Family Martinez y Ballejo o Vallejo
>
> Hola Jose Maria,
>
> Muchas gracias por su ayuda. Yo hablo espanol pero no escribo la idioma muy bien.
>
> Mi abuelo, José Gertrudis (conocido: Gertrudis) Martínez nació en 1850 y me han dicho que el llego a México de Francia con dos hijos (nombres se desconocen - esposa había muerto). Yo no a encontraro cualquier cosa que confirma esta estoria. Los padres de Gertrudis fueron José Martínez Cobarrubia y Julianna Jaure.
>
> Gertrudis se casó con mi abuela, Norberta Cruz Ballejo, en 1899. Ella nació en Tepatitlán en 1882 (también se encuentra como Vallejo). Los padres de me abuela fueron Felipe Vallejo (o Ballejo) n. 1829 y Sixta Cruz o Santa Cruz n. 1841.
>
> Gertrudis y Norberta tuvieron tres hijos: Marina n. 1900 en San José de Gracia; Julio José n. 1902 y María Jesús n. 1904 en Tepatitlán (creo que Maria Jesus murió poco después de nacer porque no estaba con ellos cuando emigraron a Arizona). Mi abuelo tenía dos o tres tiendas en Jalisco, pero no sé dónde. Ellos vivíeron en Nochistlán antes de trasladarse a Morenci, Arizona en 1905. Mi padre, Margarito Benjamin n. 1911 y Santiago n. 1913 nacieron en Morenci, Arizona.
>
> Mi tía Marina (n. 1900) se casó con Eulogio Martínez de la zona de Nochistlán. Tuvieron un hijo, Raúl, nacido en 1921 en Nochistlán y murió 1974 en California. Más tarde ella se casó en Morenci con Antonio Carmona n. 1900 en Nochistlán. Tuvieron dos hijos nacidos en Morenci, Arizona, Rogelio n. 1926, y Clemente n. 1930. El matrimonio terminó y Antonio regreso con Rogelio y Clemente a Nochistlán. Marina vivió y murió en Jaurez, México. Yo penso que los dos hijos quedaron en Nochistlán.
>
> Mi abuelo, Gertrudis Martinez, regreso a Jalisco en 1921 a vender sus tiendas y untes de volver a Arizona, murio en Guadalajara el mismo ano.
>
> Si algo suena familar, yo estaría muy feliz de recibir cualquier información. Una vez más, gracias por su amabilidad de ofrecer su ayuda. Si existe alguna investigación que yo puedo asistirlo, por favor, hágamelo saber.
>
> También estoy investigando en la zona de Cañadas la familia de mi marido - Marentes y Jáuregui:
>
> Cleofas Marentes n. 1876, m. 1916 y Francisa Jauregui n. ? m. 1913 - que nacieron y murieron en Cañadas. Tuvieron 6 hijos, todos nacidos en Cañadas: Isabel Marentes, Merced Marentes (el padre de mi marido) n. 1907 m. 1967, María Dolores Marentes, Tiburcio Marentes, y Jesús Marentes. Tenemos varias familia Marentes en Novolato, Sinaloa, pero nadie allí tiene mas información.
>
> Gracias Jose Maria por su ayuda - es muy apreciada. Sabemos que tenemos familia en estas áreas y que algún día nos gustaría encuentralos.
> Saludos cordiales,
> Judith Marentes
> Plano, Texas
>

Comentario

Hola Raul: Lo siento, pero mi español no es muy bueno. Estoy buscando familia de mi padre y veio que tienes varios de los nombres que búsquo. Mis abuelos fueron José Gertrudis Martínez n. 1850 y Cruz Norberta Ballejo (o Vallejo)n. 1882. El padre de mi abuela y su madre fueron Felipe Ballejo / Vallejo n. 1829 y Sixta Cruz o Santa Cruz n. 1841. Sus padres también están en su lista. Por favor, hágamelo saber cómo contactar con usted para obtener más información. Estoy muy alegre de finalmente encontrar a alguien que puede estar relacionado. Gracias por su respuesta. Judith Marentes de Texas

Comentario

hola mi nombre es Jose Maria Vallejo Mercado, soy de Jalostotitlan, Jal. mi padre es Andres Vallejo Vallejo, y en Jalostotitlan, es la cuna de los Vallejo, que vinieron de Chalco Estado de Mexico, siendo Lucas Vallejo, que nacion en 1623 y vinoa radicar lo que ahora es Canadas de Obregon, y de el venimos todos los Vallejo de la region.

Soy aficionadfo a la genealogia y dices que tu abuelo era Felipe Vallejo esposo de Sixta Cruz o

si pudieras tener el npmbre del padre de Felipe y la madre seria mas facil seguir tu arbol genealogico. mi correo es josema.vallejo@hotmail.com, para cualquier informacion. Soy de Jalostotitlan, Jal.

De hecho hay un Ciudad en California que se llama Vallejo, fue en honor del General Guadalupe Mariano Vallejo, que nacio un 4 de Julio de 1807, en MOnterey, California, hijo de Vicente Ferrer Vallejo que nacio en Jalos en el ano de 1748, hijo a la vez de Geronimo Vallejo, que debio haber nacido en 1721, este hijo de Lucas Vallejo que nacio en 1688, en el Valle de las Amilpas en Estado de Mexico, y caso en 1713, con Tomasa o Tomasina Herrera, siendo este matrimonio el genearca de los Vallejo de la Region, hijo a la vez de Jose Vallejo Gordivar que nacio en 1651, hijo de Antonio Vallejo que nacio en 1623, igual en Mexico.

Recibe saludos.

Hasta pronto.

Atte

Jose Maria Vallejo MercadoJ

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: windmillbb@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 23:17:39 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Familia Cruz/Ballego
>
>
> Hola Raul: Lo siento, pero mi español no es muy bueno. Estoy buscando familia de mi padre y veio que tienes varios de los nombres que búsquo. Mis abuelos fueron José Gertrudis Martínez n. 1850 y Cruz Norberta Ballejo (o Vallejo)n. 1882. El padre de mi abuela y su madre fueron Felipe Ballejo / Vallejo n. 1829 y Sixta Cruz o Santa Cruz n. 1841. Sus padres también están en su lista. Por favor, hágamelo saber cómo contactar con usted para obtener más información. Estoy muy alegre de finalmente encontrar a alguien que puede estar relacionado. Gracias por su respuesta. Judith Marentes de Texas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Comentario

Hola José María, gusto en volver a tener contacto contigo, nos e si me recuerdes, soy el joven de Tepatitlán que realizó la recolección de los kits para revisar el ADN en los Altos.

Ahora que mencionas a José Vallejo Gordívar, y que era hijo de un tal Antonio Vallejo me gustaría preguntarte sobre ellos, porque yo soy descendiente de José Vallejo y Micaela Cornejo, y solo tengo eso. No se nada mas de ellos y ahora que mencionas el Gordívar y el padre me gustaría que me dijeras por favor de donde tomaste esa información si no es mucha molestia.

Te agradezco de antemano cualquier dato.

L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
Tel.: 3781095311
www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez

Comentario

Hola Jorge Luis, claro que me acuerdo de ti, me da gusto.

Fijate que la informacion la consegui del Dr. Mariano Gonzalez Leal de su libro Retonos de Espana en la Nueva Galicia, el me facilito dicha informacion el 02 de Agosto de 2008, que estuvo en Valle de Guadalupe dando una conferencia.

Jose Vallejo Gordivar y Micaela Cornejo, tuvieron entre otros hijos a Alonso, una hermana y a Lucas ) este es mi genearca), de hecho tengo conocimiento de un Sr. Jose Maria Vallejo que fue presidente de Tepatitlan, por el ano de 1837.

De hecho de mis 16 tatarabuelos tengo 4 que se apellidan Vallejo, dos descientes de Antonio Justo, y los otros dos descienden de un Ignacio Vallejo, que nacio por el ano de 1770, padre de Agustin Vallejo que caso en el ano de 1813, casado con Ana Maria Reynoso, de hecho me falta un eslabon para conectarlo con Lucas Vallejo casado con Tomasa o Tomasina Herrera.

En caso que tu tengas informacion te agrtadeceria si la compartas.

Te menciono que tengo un amigo de Jalos, que se llama Atanacio Gutierrez Gutierrez, y el trabaja en Mexico, quien conoce al Lic. Augusto Vallejo, quien le informo que el primer Vallejo que llego a Mexico con Hernan Cortes sellamaba Antonio de Vallejo, quien fue el encargado de empedrar la Cd. de Mexico, alla por el ano de 1519, pero el genearca mas lejano que tengo conocimiento es Antonio Vallejo padre de Jose Vallejo Gordivar, y este Antonio nacio en el ano de 1623, alrededor de 120 anos despues del que vino de Espana.

Bueno recibe saludos, hasta pronto.

Atte.

Chema.

> From: georgio_2386@hotmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:55:48 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Familia Cruz/Ballego
>
>
> Hola José María, gusto en volver a tener contacto contigo, nos e si me recuerdes, soy el joven de Tepatitlán que realizó la recolección de los kits para revisar el ADN en los Altos.
>
>
>
> Ahora que mencionas a José Vallejo Gordívar, y que era hijo de un tal Antonio Vallejo me gustaría preguntarte sobre ellos, porque yo soy descendiente de José Vallejo y Micaela Cornejo, y solo tengo eso. No se nada mas de ellos y ahora que mencionas el Gordívar y el padre me gustaría que me dijeras por favor de donde tomaste esa información si no es mucha molestia.
>
>
>
> Te agradezco de antemano cualquier dato.
>
> L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
> Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
> Tel.: 3781095311
> www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez
>
>
>
>

1820 Padron (Census) of Jalpa, Zac

Published by ArturoG –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hello,
I've scanned in the images from the 1820 Census of the Parish of Jalpa, Zacatecas. I hope they'll be useful to you, especially since the records for Jalpa in the early 1800s are so scant.

Comentarios

Comentario

In looking at the Pi Symbol which is found below a group of names and then often followed by a number.. I am thinking this is a "P" which sometimes looks like a P and sometimes like Pi
.. I am comparing it to letter in a persons name especially in image 8, the left page.. on the left column. the 6th group of names The name is Maria Petronilla
written as a PI symbol. The Next name is Pedro Antonio Cartucho. The P in Pedro is the traditional style P letter.

In thinking about the P ..... ( Insert No. 1, 2, 3)
Perhaps it was for Parvulo.. Todlers.. and meaning not yet confirmed ? Is this church census Naming those confirmed in the church ?
Or Perhaps.. P for Pagano Pagans.. not members of the church ?
==============
Al analizar el símbolo Pi que se encuentra por debajo de un grupo de nombres y luego a menudo seguida de una serie .. Estoy pensando que esto es una "P" que a veces se parece a una P y, a veces, como Pi
.. Me estoy comparando con letra en un nombre de las personas sobre todo en la imagen 8, la página de la izquierda .. en la columna de la izquierda. el 6º grupo de nombres El nombre es María Petronila
escrita como un símbolo PI. A continuación el nombre es Pedro Antonio Cartucho. El P en Pedro es la letra P estilo tradicional.

pensando en un P ..... (Insertar Nº 1, 2, 3)
Tal vez fue por párvulo .. .. todlers y significado aún no confirmada? Es nombrar este censo iglesia los confirmados en la iglesia?
O tal vez .. P .. para Pagano paganos no son miembros de la iglesia?

Comentario

Reguarding the Church ceunsus and the Line at the end of each families name with the "P" and a number following. i am thinking that perhaps the "P" in these Documents may be a Donation; solicited at the time of the Church census. "P" for Pago meaning payment.
=========

En cuanto al censo de la Iglesia y de la línea al final de cada nombre de las familias y la "P" con un Numero despues de ella. Estoy pensando que quizás la "P" en estos documentos puede ser una donación; solicitado en el momento del censo Iglesia. "P" para el pago

Comentario

Ingles:
I am beginning to index these 12 Census images. In my PDF I will Bracket
(Translations I Am Unsure Of) If there is someone else who researches this Area; Calvillo,Ags. - Jalpa, Zac. - Huanusco; who would be willing to review the questionable translation sections I would appreciate it.
... Or Please let me know if someone else has already indexed these images.

Espanol:
Estoy empezando a índice de estas 12 imágenes del Censo. En mi PDF voy a poner entre corchetes
(Las traducciones no estoy seguro de) Si hay alguien que investiga esta zona; Calvillo, Ags. - Jalpa, Zac. - Huanusco; que estaría dispuesto a revisar las secciones de traducción cuestionables yo agradezco.
... O Por favor, hágamelo saber si alguien ya ha indexado estas imágenes.

Escrituras 1691 - 1738, Padrones 1639 - 1735

Published by MADERA_32 –
Foros
Genealogy Research

I was looking at microfilm of Escrituras:
Escrituras 1691 - 1738
Film/DGS # 169054

Comentarios

Comentario

The"seals" that are occasionally seen on the old documents are actually tax stamps, or evidence of taxes paid to the crown.

To collectors, these are referred to as "revenue stamped paper," or "renta papel sellado," and in Spain they date from a decree signed by Felipe IV on October 6,1636.

The design of the stamp changed each year, and was to be available in four sellos: primero, segundo, tercero, and quatro. A different fee or tax was charged for each. The most important documents were primero and these cost the most, being charged per page.

In the Spanish colonies they date from December 1638. Rather than changed every year, these were valid for two years.

In the 1640/41 period the primero was 24 reales; the segundo, 6 reales; the tercero, 1 real; and the quarto, 1/4 real.

You can occasionally find documents with these tax stamps at stamp dealers. The cost varies quite a bit: generally earlier complete documents in good condition with clear impressions will be quite expensive (several thousand dollars for a example from Felipe IV). Documents from the early 1800s will range from less than $100 to a few hundred dollars. Poor impressions, partial or damaged documents, sell for less.

"Mexico's Revenue Stamps: An Introduction to the Revenue Stamps of Mexico" by Michael D. Roberts (2011) illustrates the various types and gives general price information.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

Comentario

Antonio,
It's been a long time since I've looked at the Census film 168804 in
search of more information on the residents of Jalpa, Zac. My records
indicate that there was only a burned cover page, but no specific list
of residents. Pages from other towns seemed to have been intermingled
with the 1769 Xalpa. Did you come across other pages for Jalpa.

As for the "Escrituras," can you give more details about the records
contain or focus on? I am not familiar with them and doubt many others
know these records.

Arturo G

>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 14:55:57 -0700 (PDT)
> From: zacatecano020@hotmail.com
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Escrituras 1691 - 1738, Padrones 1639 -
> 1735
> Message-ID:
>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> I was looking at microfilm of Escrituras:
> Escrituras 1691 - 1738
> Film/DGS # 169054
>
> I only looked at the first few pages as immediately I was reading a lot of interesting things and how the seals/stamps that were on the escrituras. I only read the first few pages because I ended up chatting about geneology with one of the aides at the LDS center that was helping me make copies. The title of the microfilm is:
>
> Archivo De La Sagrada Mita
> Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico
> Escrituras
> Hojas Sueltas, Siglo XVII
>
> But when I first began reading the first pages I was seeing escrituras dating back to 1598!! I wrote down some notes on what one said, "Bellade San Felipe 28 de Septiembre 1598 Trespaso Valle de San Francisco, Juan Diaz Domingo Palacios. Hacienda de Domingo Gallegos 1597" as example. I liked the seal/stamp I saw on another escritura year 1707 and made two copies of it:
>
> http://oi60.tinypic.com/11vgmds.jpg
> http://oi58.tinypic.com/jsbr42.jpg
>
> And the seal/stamp on the first page of this escritura year 1692/1693:
>
> http://oi59.tinypic.com/ojknrl.jpg
>
> I am looking for the Escrituras of my GGGGGGG Grandfather Antonio Madera (1660 - 1709) from Minilla, Mezquitic, Jalisco, Mexico area. His wife Maria De La Canderlia (1655 - 1735) had left a testamento at Monte Escobedo, Zacatecas, Mexico.
>
> I was also looking at
>
> Padrones 1639 - 1775
> Film/DGS # 168804
>
> Didn't find the census of our region in the Huejuquilla/Mezquitic. I wrote some notes on what it contained:
>
> Laguna,
> Juchipila,
> Xalpa - 1769 census
> Monterrey, Valle De La Pinas - 1762 Census
> Rancho Del Maraoach???
> Villa de ? Caliente Census
> Pueblo Teoquitatlan 1765 Census
> Hacienda de Toluquilla
>
> There are census of several villages I am not familiar with in that microfilm. I made a copy of the title page of one of the Census in that microfilm which is this:
>
> http://oi59.tinypic.com/5l3n21.jpg
>
> I am not familiar with that place. Where is it?
>
> End of Research Digest, Vol 105, Issue 20
> *****************************************

Comentario

Yes Arturo, I am pretty sure there is a census of Jalpa on the microfilm. I am familiar with the name of a town in Zacatecas called, "Jalpa" and when I was scrolling threw the microfilm there was "Xalpa" and lists of people living there. But to be sure, I will be making more trips to the LDS center to view the microfilm on "Escrituras". Then I will take a look again at the microfilm on Xalpa and be sure. I will try to make copies if there is a census. That new machine they have in the LDS center takes a long time just to make one copy. Because you have to first put in the film, then put in the lens. Focus the lens. Then press scan, which the picture goes to another computer. There you can adjust picture and save on computer. The older machine they used to have there was much faster, less tecnology, but did get the job done. When I was browsing the "Escrituras" I was totally excited and was reading the first few pages. But the aide that was helping me make a copy, ended up chatting with me on geneology and showing me websites on the internet until closing time. They are open on Wednesdays, Thursday nights and on Saturday during the day. I will try to be there on Wednesday night and directly check on the census on Jalpa.

APELLIDOS RANGEL AGUASCALIENTES ZACATECAS JALISCO

Published by VictorRangel –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hola a todos,

Comentarios

Comentario

I had not realized that I had mistakenly written “Teresa De Tovar” instead of “Tovar De Teresa” in my comments. I remember a few years ago someone else wrote “Teresa De Tovar” when he was still alive and he was very irritated by that mistake.

Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Víctor,

Me da gusto saber que somos parientes até talvez cercanos. Me madre nació en la ciudad de México mas se crió en la ciudad de Aguascalientes donde mi abuelo nació. Entre varios parientes eran los González de Hermosillo, Striker, García de Rojas, Fernández Villa, Gómez de Portugal y los Guinchard quien eran bancarios destacadas durante el siglo XIX, tengo varios documentos sobre ellos. Creo que seamos parientes por los Guinchard, Macías Valadés, García y los Villalpando. Te enviaré otro mensagen.

Daniel Méndez de Torres Camino

Comentario

Victor,

Your Rangel's seem to have originated in Asientos, Aguas., These are my wife's Rangel's also. In Asientos there were at least three Jose Rangel & Dolores Esparza's listed in the records there. the first one is Jose Timoteo Rangel & Dolores Esparza who were having kids in the early 1780's. The second Jose Rangel & Dolores Esparza were married May 23, 1790. And the third Jose Rangel & Dolores Esparza were married in 1818.
I have Jose Rangel #2 listed as Gil Rangel's father. My wife comes up thru Bartolo Rangel, Gil's brother, and son of Jose Rangel & Dolores Esparza #2. I have six kids listed for Jose #2. This Jose Rangel is the son of Joseph Thadeo Rangel & Maria Casilda Gertrudis Nabarro married April 22, 1743 in Asientos. I can trace this line back three more generations past Joseph Thadeo Rangel.
I have ten kids listed for Gil Rangel & Ciriaca Garcia but I did not have your Merced Rangel in my list. A side note on Ciriaca Garcia's father Santiago Garcia, after his wife Matilde Villalpando died he married Antonia Rangel daughter of Jose Rangel & Dolores Esparza.
It seems like this Rangel clan moved back and forth a lot having kids in different locations. Some of the locations I know about are Asientos Aguas./ Aguas., Aguas. / Cieneguilla, Aguas. / San Luis Potosi, SLP.
I don't really know much about Jose Timoteo Rangel, I could not place him in the family because no documents had the name "Timoteo" on them. Do you have anything that ties him in? Let me know what I can do to help You.

Best Regards,
Ron Robinson

Comentario

Definitivamente, el padre de Merced Rangel es GIl Rangel, quien es hijo de José Timoteo Rangel.
Cabe recalcar que Gil Rangel tuvo a su cargo diversas haciendas que incluían prácticamente una tercera parte del estado de Aguascalientes, en la parte nororiental y norte del estado de Aguascalientes.

Mi padre comenta que José Timoteo Rangel está ligado a los Romo de Vivar a través de diversos matrimonios, y así sucesivamente varias generaciones hacia arriba hasta alcanzar una línea de Judíos Sefardis, que se proclaman descendientes directos del Rey David. A través de María Rangel de Pegueros que era descendiente de un judío convertido llamado Abraham Ha Levi.

Cualquier información al respecto favor de avisarme.

Comentario

Definitivamente, el padre de Merced Rangel es GIl Rangel, quien es hijo de José Timoteo Rangel.
Cabe recalcar que Gil Rangel tuvo a su cargo diversas haciendas que incluían prácticamente una tercera parte del estado de Aguascalientes, en la parte nororiental y norte del estado de Aguascalientes.

Mi padre comenta que José Timoteo Rangel está ligado a los Romo de Vivar a través de diversos matrimonios, y así sucesivamente varias generaciones hacia arriba hasta alcanzar una línea de Judíos Sefardis, que se proclaman descendientes directos del Rey David. A través de María Rangel de Pegueros que era descendiente de un judío convertido llamado Abraham Ha Levi.

Cualquier información al respecto favor de avisarme.

Comentario

Definitivamente, el padre de Merced Rangel es GIl Rangel, quien es hijo de José Timoteo Rangel.
Cabe recalcar que Gil Rangel tuvo a su cargo diversas haciendas que incluían prácticamente una tercera parte del estado de Aguascalientes, en la parte nororiental y norte del estado de Aguascalientes.

Mi padre comenta que José Timoteo Rangel está ligado a los Romo de Vivar a través de diversos matrimonios, y así sucesivamente varias generaciones hacia arriba hasta alcanzar una línea de Judíos Sefardis, que se proclaman descendientes directos del Rey David. A través de María Rangel de Pegueros que era descendiente de un judío convertido llamado Abraham Ha Levi.

Cualquier información al respecto favor de avisarme.

Comentario

Dear Victor.

Research on the Romo de Vivar and Rangel families have been going on for centuries. Unfortunately, much of the past research has been taken for granted and it needs to be reevaluated. Before el señor Teresa de Tovar passed away, he stated that Diego Romo de Vivar was married to a different Rangel Peguero then the one we have all listed for decades. He did not give all the information or sources because he stated that we needed to wait until he finished the book.

If el señor Teresa de Tovar is correct, then the line still descends from judeoconversos. The two different spouses that are given for Diego Romo de Vivar both descend from the Ha Levi family. Contrary to what many genealogists state, the romo de vivat rangel family obviously has judeoconverso roots.

The question of the different spouses brings up the question "Are we dealing with two different Diego Romo de Vivar"s If they are different Diego Romo de Vivar then is it possible that we descend from a different diego romo de vivat then the one that everyone names as the progenitor of the romo de Vivar family in Agauascalientes. I have found a different Diego Romo de Vivar inGuadalajara that was identified as an inquisitor. This Diego Rome de Vivar is considered a cousin of the Diego Romo de Vivar that we have long considered the progenitor of the Romos in Aguascalientes. Señor Teresa de Tovar brings information to the table, that if true, disrupts what we know about the first Diego Romo de Vivar. Teresa de Tovar identifies Diego Romo de Vivar as primarily working in the mines with no evidence that he was an inquisitor. The other Diego Romo de Vivar is listed in documents as an inquisitor. Either our information that the progenitor from Aguascalientes was an inquisitor was incorrect or we could possibly descend from the second Diego Romo de Vivar that was an Inquistor, identified as a cousin to the first Diego

If genealogists insist that we descend from a Diego Romo de Vivar that was an inquisitor than we need to do more research into the life of the only Diego Romo de Vivar that I have found listed in the rolls of inquisitors in Nueva Galicia in the early 1600s. To help us in our research, we need to see what we can find from Teresa de Tovars records and rough draft of his book.

Or we could let sleeping dogs lie and continue to repeat the .same information without questioning it.

Comentario

Mr. Ricci,

Is this the Diego Romo de Vivar that's with Maria Rangel or a different
one. Is he the inquisidor and what is an inquisidor? is that a job.

Danny C. Alonso

Comentario

Dear Danny,

Yes, s the same Diego Romo de Vivar that we are talking about. The question becomes. Who are his parents and which wife Rangel Peguero are we talking about. Sr. Teresa's de Tovar lists a different wife for the Diego Romo de Vivar that we have considered our progenitor. And this Diego was busy working in the mines and is not found in the list of inquisitors in the early 1600's. The information that we have been passed down over many decades was that our Diego Romo de Vivar was a member of the inquisition. The other Diego is the only one listed as an official of the inquisition and he has different parents. We need to investigate Sr teresa de Tovars claims..

He was not always right even though he claimed to be a stickler for primary sources. Teresa de Tovar refused to acknowledge that I had discovered an error in a line that he published with Mariano Gonzalez Leal. I gave him court records on a property that showed that they had made a slight mistake where they had mixed up a nephew with his uncle. The court records clearly identified the correct lineage. He was also mistaken on another line that had to do with the Fernandez de Hijar. Teresa de Tovar did a lot of research that is truly impressive. He just wasn't very good at admitting when he was wrong, even when confronted with indisputable evidence. As scientists, and genealogists are scientists, we must have the results of our investigations guide us. When the data presents different information than our hypothesis, than we need to pay attention to our data have our conclusions reflect the added information. The new information cannot be ignored.

Teresa de Tovar had also done some research on some families that I had also investigated. A couple of the lines were Judeoconversos that were investigated by the inquisitors for not attending church and practicing Jewish traditions. Even though this information was not hard to find, he did not include this information in a book that he published

Teresa de tovar revealed his information after I had already found the information on the other Diego Romo de Vivar that is listed as an inquisitor. Once Teresa de Tovar insisted that his information is correct than you need to reevaluate which Diego Romo de Vivar is the one that is the progenitor of the Romo de Vivar's from Aguascalientes.

Most people are more comfortable leaving things as they are. Until we see Mr Teresa de Tovars evidence, it is hard to say what the truth is.

Comentario

Dear Danny,

Here is what Mr. Teresa de Tovar wrote in another post here on the nuestroranchos website. When I asked him to elaborate, he stated that I would have to wait for the book to come out.:

"(Diego Romo era natural de Rielves, Toledo, que es Castilla y no de
Sevilla, que es Andaluca. Su partida de bautizo en Rielves, Toledo, est
fechada en 12 de marzo de 1589. Era hijo de Diego Romo de Vivar y de
Catalina Perez.
>
> Maria Rangel Ortz Peguero era de las familias que a mediiados del siglo
XVI se establecieron en las Villas de San Miguel y Guanajuato. Era hija de
Diego Rangel Peguero y Cuadrado y de Juana Ortiz)"

If Mr Teresa de Tovar is correct than the line given on that website that you are offering as evidence is incorrect.

We need to investigate the ancestry of Maria Rangel Peguero since there are two of them being given as the wife of this Diego Romo de Vivar. We also need to investigate the information that we is being given on Diego Romo De Vivar since there are also two of them and I am not talking about father and son. I am talking about the one that invested in the mines and the other one that was an inquisitor. The inquisitor was not the son of Diego Romo de Vivar and Catalina Perez. The record that shows him as an inquisitor shows a different set of parents.

Both Maria Rangel Pegueros descend from the Ha Levi family. It is not entirely accurate to list them as judeo sefardistas. The Ha Levi family intermarried repeatedly with a circle of Jewish families that are considered Ashkenazi Jews (from France and Germany's). These families had been in Spain or just on the other side of the border living in what is now France for about two hundred years before the expulsion from Spain but they had other traditions then what we call Sephardic Jews. Some had come from further north in France and Germany. This Ha Levi family has descendants that repeatedly intermarried with the nobility that we have studied as ancestors some of the founding members of los altos de Jalisco.

Comentario

Mr. Ricci,

I've notices that Geni.com makes a lot of errors, so I dont know how
reliable their information is but they have Maria Rangel Ortiz Peguero
married to Diego Romo de Vivar. But it looks like they're just using the
same Diego Romo de Vivar married to a different Maria Rangel. These Rangels
dont look like they descend from the Ha levi family though, at least it's
not mentioned here.

http://www.geni.com/people/Diego-Romo-de-Vivar-y-P%C3%A9rez/60000000092…

Danny C. Alonso

Comentario

Regarding geni.com, please use this (as well as other published trees) as more of a hint source for further research. My experience with geni.com was not good. I found my husband's family there and I started filling in the blanks. I found an error with dates and birthplace for his grandmother. I contacted geni.com and their procedure is for you to contact the person/manager who entered the original post. I thought it would be easy and exciting to possibly connect with a family member (as I have done on here as well as ancestry.com). I told the "manager" who I was and let them know the corrected information that I had. They were not interested. I had documents as well as my mother in law to corraborate the correct information. They still did not make the correction. I contacted the developer of the site and he was pretty non-commital, explaining that the policy is the person who adds someone to the tree becomes the manager. It is up to them to make any edits. To me, that leaves a HUGE room for error and accuracy is not a priority. I'm not saying it is a bad site, but I do caution that it has many errors.

Comentario

Sheri,

I agree about the Geni.com, they're always filled with wrong information. I
think when someone mentions a theory on the Nuestros Ranchos Forum they
also just steal the idea and put it on there Geni site like it's already
proven. I don't use them at all. I only trust the information at the Austin
Perez Wikitree and the information on geneanet.org that's the only trees I
use to help me.

Danny C. Alonso

Comentario

I am not new to Nuestros Ranchos but new to comment since I had not felt prepared enough to know what to state. I posted my first comment yesterday the 17th of Jan 2018. I have spent hours reading the LDS FamilySearch records for Hidalgo del Parral and see many records of Juan Rangel (y Viesma) but very few for Romo de Vivar even tho Felipe Reyes Romo states that Diego R de V and Maria Rangel were there from 1626-1656. One would expect to find entries for baptisms, deaths or even marriages over a 30 year period in the Parral records. What is your view on this and the issue of 2 Maria de Rangel? I hope I can find a descendency line I can trust.

Comentario

Definitivamente, el padre de Merced Rangel es GIl Rangel, quien es hijo de José Timoteo Rangel.
Cabe recalcar que Gil Rangel tuvo a su cargo diversas haciendas que incluían prácticamente una tercera parte del estado de Aguascalientes, en la parte nororiental y norte del estado de Aguascalientes.

Mi padre comenta que José Timoteo Rangel está ligado a los Romo de Vivar a través de diversos matrimonios, y así sucesivamente varias generaciones hacia arriba hasta alcanzar una línea de Judíos Sefardis, que se proclaman descendientes directos del Rey David. A través de María Rangel de Pegueros que era descendiente de un judío convertido llamado Abraham Ha Levi.

Cualquier información al respecto favor de avisarme.

SAN MATIAS SIERRA DE PINOS: CONFIRMACIONES 1621 & 1627

Published by jrefugioghermosillo –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hola prim@s,

These are transcriptions of photocopies of the original books, that were provided by Mary Lou Montagna.

This volume includes:
Confirmaciones Jun 1621
Confirmaciones Jan 1627

Comentarios

Comentario

Thank you Mary Lou Montagna for providing the information and thank you Manny for putting it together and sharing such great information.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!

Comentario

Hola prim@s,

As mentioned, the pages, Pinos 31 & 32, have no headers, date, location, nor signature of cura nor notary. They appear to be written by a different person, and likely at a later date (date on previous image was 29 Jan 1627). I say that, because, as I began forming the family groups of these early generations, I began noticing that some of the children were baptized at a later date - some as late as 22 Apr 1634. And then it dawned on me: confirmations require the presence of a bishop, and I noticed that the previous confirmations coincided with the bishop’s visits/inspections in Jun 1621, and in Jan 1627. There was another visit in October 1638, so that would be the date of these confirmations. The bishop at the time was Juan Sánchez Duque de Estrada, but the visit/inspection was conducted by el Pᵉ Lᵈᵒ Juan Magaña, Juez Visitor. I suspect that he conducted the confirmations, as well.

Saludos!
Manny Díez Hermosillo

Comentario

Hola:

Muchas gracias, lo vamos a revisar con detenimiento para buscar las relaciones con nuestros ancestros, me pareció muy interesante tener el nombre de las estancias que existían en aquél entonces, porque pocas fuentes históricas las citan.

Por cierto el apellido Faras es correcto, es de una familia que se estableció en Parral y hay la variante Faras de Amaya. Se cree que es un apellido de origen judío pero yo personalmente creo que es moro.

Saludos

Marcelina

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